Dornier 17z Airfix (1/72)

[Roy vd M.]

Burning the photo etch... more info later.

[jrlx]

Hi Roy,

I finally managed to read your posts since my last visit to the thread. Your detailed explanation on your approach to weathering is very interesting and provides a lot of ideas. The results you achieved by applying that approach are very good.

The other posts are also full of usefull tips and show your extreme attention to detail, as usual. Thanks a lot for sharing, I'll be coming back to your WIP as a reference while I build my own Do 17z. As you know, you already influenced my build a lot

Keep up posting

Cheers

Jaime

[Roy vd M.]

@Jaime: I do appreciate you following this thread. And be ascertained that if you were ahead of me your build would be the one I'd be influenced by.

248. Back to the flap. To attach the (almost invisibly small) diamonds to the rib crossings, I use Gator Glue (=not Gator's Grip). As soon as that's dry, I fix the diamonds with thin CA. Any spillings can be sucked into a piece of toilet paper.

Note the (wrong, see hereafter) position of the plastic axle.

249. I'm not too happy with Eduard, due to its several deficiencies till now and here again. Here the flap does have the correct broadness but it doesn't agree with Airfix's part. Something worth mentioning by Eduard, I'd think. The Airfix-part needs sanding.

Another thing, quite important: the plastic rod was positioned too much centrally. In reality it has to be fixed toward the border of the flap. Here, too, Eduard could have given us some guidelines. It's just a bit careless.

250. And then the flap needs to be fixed... this is a matter of thorough dry-fitting, filing the Airfix plastic part and eventually glueing the flap. Main problem is that there's only an attachment point in the centre. The rest is hanging loosely. Not good... so I decide to use thin CA (hoping that the borders come to stick to each other).

Success applying the thin CA... it's made the borders stick to each other. Sucking up residues with toilet paper... and check if no small holes are clogged... almost every hole is checked and then... the flap goes "crack". Loose again! Hit-the-thing-against-the-wall-moment

At that point I had to make the choice: muddling through and trying to glue, or try all over again, this time positioning the plastic rod to the border of the PE and making everything neat (a bit of thin CA had clogged up some holes... the glue had dried unexpectedly quickly).

So, burn it!

251. The purpose of the fire is to burn away all the CA glue from the flap. That glue burns very well, as most people know. Of course the plastic melted along, but that's no problem.

Against my expectations, the Gator Glue maintained and withstood the fire. From now on I'll call it 'glue from hell'... everything is still securely fixed. Really, incredible... this thing was on fire for about 30 seconds. What kind of glue would be up to that challenge?!

Fortunately nothing was bent.

Step plan:

1) Secure the diamonds with thin CA (=redoing #248).

2) Sand the Airfix-part (nacelle insert piece) a bit more, as well as sand it to the right direction.

3) Place the plastic rod all the way to the end of the PE.

4) Dryfit!!

5) Glue photo etch to the ends of the plastic rods (or, the PE surrounding them) and of the nacelle insert. So, there will be three glue points...

Total spent time: 92 hours.

[Martian]

Great workmanship and a pleasure to follow!

Martin

[jrlx]

Oh dear...what a lot of work... Thanks for the pointers to the problems ahead, Roy. I'll keep a close look at the solutions you find.

Cheers

Jaime

[Roy vd M.]

Martin and Jaime, I really appreciate you keeping up with this thread and taking a moment to write down those encouragements!

Jaime, your remark in your previous post led me to the following list of advice re. this kit. Maybe this topic can help more people... I can improve those odds by making an overview of advice. I'll also add this to the first post of this thread, for easy reference purposes.

252. Here’s a list of improvement- and awareness points regarding the Airfix- and Eduard-parts. Safe a few exceptions, this advice merely regards the Airfix Dornier 17z + aftermarket specifically.

The mentioned numbers are the paragraphs in this topic where the issues are discussed. Everything is treated chronologically, in the order of my findings. Please note that every modeller is in charge of his or her own build; everything is possible, nothing is obligatory... the hereunder is solely meant as help for those modellers who want to build this magnificently moulded Airfix-set.

#0: plan well ahead. Personally I don't follow the instructions' order. Biggest deviations except those discussed hereunder: picture 32 -> exhaust will be fixed only after airbrushing and decalling the plane. Pictures 34-37: the engine will only be fixed after airbrushing & decalling. Picture 38: first, sand thin and prepare for priming. Eventually, the engine will be pushed inside those and the subassembly will be fixed to the wing. It's absolutely necessary though to fix the engines. Pictures 69-74: the glass and the MG15s are fixed before airbrushing the body.

#2: the ribs of the upper flaps are best broken off and then glued in place.

#4: mind that the upper flap is fitted perfectly, it's a very tight fit. Take great attention when using CA, something I really don't advice.

#19: remove inexplicably moulded plastic from the MG15s.

#23: put photo etch on, and paint, all MG15-cartridges. In Airfix' instructions, no less than 21 are forgotten... same with Eduard, most cartridges are forgotten.

#25: mind a possibly twisted beam near the pilot seat, correct this before you won't be able to reach it.

#29: before curving the oxygen pressure thingy, make the fold first.

#36: on this picture you see that I ignored picture 6 of the Airfix-manual. This is not my original idea; I read it in another build report of this model. Picture 6 is utopia. position part C8 as a sandwich, whilst combining the two fuselage halves...

#43: dryfit everything thoroughly, especially the rear seat. With my Dornier the legs weren't far enough apart.

#45: thin the instrument panel.

#46-49: make the instrument clock housings, in case you want to 'busify' the front side (those housings will be very well visible from the front).

#71-74 (after #52-61): make a step plan before tackling a bomb rack. And do yourself a favor purchasing a bottle of Gator Glue (not being "Gator's Grip glue").

#67: with the 50KG-bombs: make slits into the plastic, don't stick the PE fins toegether. Alternatively: soldering.

#69: connect wires to the instrument clocks.

#75: thin the bomb bay doors (even if you won't use photo etch).

#78: consider removing the ejector pin marks in the bomb bay (especially if the bomb racks are not used).

#80: with the pilot's seatbelts, ignore the fold lines of the upper buckles.

#85: mind the ejector pin marks topside of the bomb bay.

#90: the MG15s are opportunely replaced by metal or resin upgrades.

#90: choose well if the cockpit should be painted in RLM02 or RLM66. See the discussion about this at the beginning of this topic.

#104: don't trust the stickiness of self-adhesive Eduard photo etch parts. Always add glue, to prevent parts from sagging of falling off after six months. You won't be able to repair it then.

#106: use oil paint to improve realism of the Eduard panels (glittering + color) within seconds.

#107: the front side seat can't be fixed on the attachment points. Use CA-glue as a bridge.

#112: I found out the fuselage was warped. It's so important to check this out, the whole build success depends on straightness of the fuselage. Warped fuselage = wrongly placed wings etc. etc.

#127: nacelles PE: glue 'the lid' together with a small L-piece.

#129: nacelles PE: sand 'the lid' at the front, otherwise it won't fit.

#130: nacelles PE: ignore the gap.

#132: thin the walls.

#136: nacelles PE: do a lot of dryfitting, don't use CA for fixing. The positions as suggested by Eduard, are incorrect.

#140: thin the side walls of the engine. Not only because it's more realistic, also because otherwise the engine won't fit.

#146: be extremely careful when cleaning the plastic of the landing gear.

#152: don't glue the PE-doors of the landing gear houses to the plastic. Instead, throw the plastic in the spare box. Scratch some brass 'hinges'. Just as easy, much more realistic.

#155: drill the exhausts.

#171-182: consider vacuforming the glazing.

#189-191: make the hinges for the landing gear doors.

#196: prime + RLM02 attention point!

#198: prime + RLM02 attention point!

#200-202: make up your own mind as to what kind of weathering is realistic and desirable on 1/72 scale.

#211: priming + RLM02 attention point!

#212: priming + RLM02 attention point!

#213: use the Eduard-mask as template for an inside-mask.

#216: priming + RLM66 (or RLM02) attention point!

#219-220: add wire for operating the bomb bay doors, e.g. Uschi van der Rosten wire + Gator's Grip glue.

#238: correct a moulding deficiency to the vertical stabilizers by some simple sanding.

#239-245: correct the position of the landing gear, using a small intervention.

#246: place and remove the landing gear parts by only touching the three spots mentioned in this paragraph, to prevent fracture.

#Future: add hinges to the flaps, so that they can be connected to the wings.

#Future: airbrush glass beneath gondola RLM66 internally.

#Future: airbrush front RLM66.

#Future: airbrush glazing above bomb bay RLM02 (from above).

#Future: thin mudguards.

#Future: resin wheels.

#Future: thin pitot tube.

#Future: scratch FuG12 dipolar antennas.

#Future: covers for side-MG15s.

#Future: antenna wire with ceramic insulators.

[CedB]

Thanks for the great detail in this thread Roy - it will make building the model much easier for me and others who try to follow in your footsteps

[Martian]

Thanks for the great detail in this thread Roy - it will make building the model much easier for me and others who try to follow in your footsteps

I second that wholeheartedly!

Martin

[Andrew]

Thirded! I'm impressed not just by the standard of work and your dedication to improving the base kit, but by your effort to provide a summary - it is greatly appreciated and will be very beneficial when I come to attempt mine.

cheers,

Andrew.

[Roy vd M.]

It feels good to know within few minutes that I didn't make the above overview for nothing.

I'm aware that a build topic such as this isn't often used as a reference, once it goes down in the topic lists... perhaps the above overview can make a difference.

I recommend those who are interested to make a selection of amendments / warnings they find interesting, and write references to those paragraphs in the respective Airfix / Eduard instruction drawings. They can then check out the referenced topic paragraph for detailed info.

[Gremlin56]

It's an amazing build Roy. Detailing is out of this world. I was amazed that the Gator grip glue survived the "Rammstein flame-thrower" part. Very brave to burn the CA off like that

[Roy vd M.]

It's an amazing build Roy. Detailing is out of this world. I was amazed that the Gator grip glue survived the "Rammstein flame-thrower" part. Very brave to burn the CA off like that

@detailing -> sometimes I want to detail even further as that's a second nature (check out my Dreadnought build), but I have to remind myself this is only an in-between build. That said, indeed the model is very, very detailed due to Airfix' and Eduard's thorough detailing undertakings.

@"Gator grip glue" -> that's "Gator Glue". Thanks for giving me the opportunity to emphasize once more that Gator Glue is the one I always recommend, although Gator's Grip is widely promoted as a modelling glue. Adding to the confusing is that Gator's Grip is often wrongly called "Gator Glue". The REAL Gator Glue (which has a goldish color) is the one to have in my view.

@"brave" -> or reckless

[jrlx]

Roy,

Thanks very much for taking the time to put all the tips and advice together. That's brilliant and most useful!

Congrats again on an excellent effort and build thread!

Cheers

Jaime

[Roy vd M.]

You're welcome Jaime

253. I'll admit that I'm quite frustrated by the flaps. They cannot be positioned correctly, because of errors in Eduard's PE construction combined with the factual impossibility if the wings are not partly sawn off and scratchbuilt. Drawings and pictures have revealed deficiencies. As usual, Kagero's drawings are incorrect. I've come to learn how the flap should be positioned in respect to the wing, but as said that cannot be recreated using Eduard's photo etch. The axle would be correctly placed fuselage side, but not wingtip side.

I have considered placing the flap like this:

... leading to a better fit, but in the end it's not a perfect solution. Perhaps in hereunder reactions I'll read "modelling is only an interpretation, an abstraction of reality, but I'll already tell you that I cannot agree with that cliche. When I build a model I intend it to be a smaller version of reality as much as possible. Even with an in-between project such as this I cannot stand thorough incorrectnesses to slip into the finalized model, like an axle whose rotating spot would be factually positioned underneath the wing structure.

254. The thin strip holding together the ribs, wasn't there in the real Dornier. I understand Eduard required it for easy assembly of the ribs. But once those ribs are put in place and the glue has hardened, the strip can be torn off.

255. After a lot of thinking and considering several options, I decided to remove the photo etched metal and to fix the plastic flap in closed position. I can tell you guys that removing the glued photo etch was a very painful moment, now that three of four flap subassemblies were finalized and so much energy was put into it.

256. In situ.

257. The only advantage is, in my view, that the beautiful wing line is now kept clean.

Total spent time: 95 hours.

[Carts]

Just found this thread,and i am hugely impressed,a superlative level of craftsmanship and attention to detail.Bravo!

[Andrew]

...

255. After a lot of thinking and considering several options, I decided to remove the photo etched metal and to fix the plastic flap in closed position. I can tell you guys that removing the glued photo etch was a very painful moment, now that three of four flap subassemblies were finalized and so much energy was put into it.

....

I can only imagine how painful it must have been... gah!

Kudos to you for continuing all the same and finding the positive in the alternative - it is a nice clean wing line. Sorry to read of your tribulations and thanks again for sharing all of your build, no matter how difficult.

cheers,

Andrew.

[Roy vd M.]

@Carts: thank you for following this thread, much appreciated!

@Andrew: it was painful but when the closed flaps were in place I was in peace with my decision.

258. For those who want to use the photo etch set (beautiful as it is) and want to bring in as much realism as possible, here's a list of suggested amendments (can't guarantee 100% correctness, this is what I have learned from drawings and pictures):

1. Saw a rectangular piece out of the wing, having the same size as a flap (the plastic curve toward tail remains in place). It has to fit perfectly. The main reason for the misfittings as discussed in my previous post is that the upper flap part consists of the Airfix plastic rather than Eduard's PE. See the drawing hereunder for a schematical overview.

2. Carefully scribe a panel line into the PE panel. The panel line runs, unlike Eduard suggests, slightly curved toward wing root.

3. Glue the two assembled upper parts into the freed-up spaces in the wings. While fixing them in place, mind that the center beam runs slightly curvedly, as mentioned under 2. Source: middle picture, page 47 of the 60th Kagero-monography.

4. The rest can be built fully according to plan. Consider discarding the PE diamonds, because they don't add too much to the picture, it's a lot of work and it will probably look sloppy if you won't spend a lot of time on them or work very carefully. Every diamond needs to be positioned similar to the others.

That way you'll get flaps as they were meant to be. It's not THAT much extra work, but I couldn't apply this to my photo etch set anymore because it was already used, bent and ruined.

259. Without paint it would look approximately like this (closed! Of course you'd want it opened) (n.b. left- and right side-part were combined here, but you get the picture).

260. The cowling is thinned thoroughly. Here before and after.

261. Before airbrushing it's necessary to dryfit the cowlings and to try fitting the engine parts into the cowlings. Here it works without problems.

262. The 2 exhaust pipes are clamped between cowling on the one hand and a T-piece on the other hand. That T-piece doesn't fit and needs several amendments. First: sand to and forth 8x with coarse sanding stick, both length sides of the T.

263. Thereafter, using the short side of a modelling file into the upper side of the length sides, in order to get the exhaust pipes to fit.

264. Finally, use a knife to carve the inner side, so that the T-pieces can be succesfully put into place.

265. And then it precisely fits.

Total spent time: 97 hours.

[Martian]

I just noticed how long you have spent on this model and have to say I am amazed at how you have produced such quality of work in so short a time!

Martin

[Roy vd M.]

Martin do you really think it's quick? I thought it was going pretty slowly, but usually I'm a much slower builder anyway. So for me, indeed it's going fast!

266. Today at IPMS Nieuwegein I noticed again what I had noticed before: dioramas are often looked and inspected thoroughly, whereas models without diorama are often (!) neglected or not even noticed. That's not only my mistake, also other visitors behaved as such; it really is a bit shocking to see (if paying attention to it). As I already wrote a couple of times before I wanted to put the Dornier into a diorama, but today I actively made some purchases for it. This also led to a change in setting. I found a couple of great kits as well as solutions for certain problems.

266a. Happiest I am with a resin kit of a Mercedes L1500S fire truck. This consists of, perhaps, 80 parts, but FanKitModels didn't deem it necessary to include building instructions. Isn't that fantastic (honestly, I somehow love that fragile attitude)... And they have been bending and cutting small pieces of copper... great! Fortunately I found a couple of pictures of the model on their website, otherwise I would not have known how to build it.

The L1500S was built from the middle of 1941, so that the setting of the diorama will have to be forwarded from 1939 to 1942. I just need to have it in there... The Dornier will be weathered slightly more (=fun!) but the same specimen is built. I think two decals have to be left out, that's it.

Also look at that box art... isn't that the summum of unattractiveness! I simply love this kit already (remind me of that later!) and would prefer to start today to clean the resin.

266b. To point out the size of the Dornier, here plane vs. truck:

266c. The Blitz refueller was already ordered in your fine country but it takes quite a bit of time before it's here. Let's just say that I have two now.

266d. A normal Blitz for 9 euro, can't go wrong with that... nicely moulded by the way.

266e. Couldn't go wrong with a Trumpeter Famo + turning crane for 11 euro... 332 parts in this kit, seems enough.

266f. Messerschmitt Bf108... hmm That plane can nicely be stored into a hangar. I don't think a Bf108 is often modelled. The plane was meant as a trainer, to teach aspiring Bf109-pilots.

266g. Adler Kübelwagen. Extremely rare miniature model, although in practice it apparently wasn't so rare at all. Nice to have in the diorama.

266h. Compressor cart, CMK.

266i. Hangar in 1/72, cardboard. This large model cost me €12,50 and looks solid as well as realistic. It could surely give that extra something to the diorama... I was a bit unsure what to do with the perhaps 'boring' grass setting... not much going on there. In and around the hangar however, vehicles can be positioned, small jokes can be implemented etc. etc. the Dornier won't be inside the hangar, it will be in front of it (doors open).

266j. The Dornier would fit in nicely.

266k. Some supporting literature.

[jrlx]

Hi Roy,

Great work, as always. I'll have to go through your explanation and suggestions to get the flaps right when I get to that phase of the build. Thanks for all the details you put into your thread.

The idea of the dio looks great. I won't follow you in there because I don't have the space for dios. In fact, I'm not sure I have the space for all models in my stash...

By the way, what kit of the Bf 108 is that? I'm looking for an alternative to the Heller kit and that could be it.

Cheers

Jaime

[Roy vd M.]

Jaime,

I very much look forward to seeing the flaps established they way they should!

@matter of space: fortunately I don't ever finish any models, so I have plenty of space haha

@Bf108: it's a kit from Fly models. Nice moulding:

Clear parts look good. A few resin parts were included. I guess I was lucky paying only 10 euros for this kit.

The decals actually feature swastikas, a rare treat.

Interesting array of marking options:

267. I just couldn't stand it... everything is dryfit, four frames are missing, a strip and the clear parts are not in place yet.

268. The Adler Typ 12 N-3G Kübelwagen kit is really as intriguing as the Mercedes kit. I suspect only a few were produced. On the maker's website the model is not mentioned, on the internet no references are to be found (or at least I couldn't), it isn't in Scalemates' database and to save costs the kit maker used an old MBC box inside-out:

Furthermore the instructions consist of three unclear pics bearing the text (in German): "the pictures show the partly assembled model, plus an overview of parts, plus a picture of the original - which should suffice as build description". Awesome

269. But it does lead to questions, especially re. the front. There seems to be an Opel Blitz logo.

My questions thus far:

- What color was the radiator protection cover?

- On online pictures of this type of car I haven't been able to see the above emblem. In fact I don't see any emblem. On other Adler-built cars there's a wide-triangular eagle (so not a small one ike the one on the next picture). Does anyone have an explanation on the blitz-like emblem on this radiator?

Here a picture of a real Adler Typ 12 N-3G:

(Copyright Kfderwehrmacht.de, educational purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

[CedB]

Wow, this just gets better and better...

[jrlx]

Thanks for the info on the 108 kit. Looks great. I'll have to source one of those

Your dry fitted dio is impressive! I can't wait to see it finished, really good

Cheers

Jaime

[Gremlin56]

The hangar is a fantastic idea instead of the bog standard grass airstrip

Nice work!

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks for the compliments guys, it adds to the fun and excitement!

@Jrlx: I just saw there's even some PE available for the BF108. Seatbelts, interior details and a few exterior details. Costs only 5 euros. See here for a review.