Andre B Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) One wonder if Revell are listening to the builders the same way that Airfix are these days? But one have to knew that Revell is an German speaking company and there is no garanty that they can understand and read the common words of english. And thats probably the reason why Revell (and also Italeri) sometimes doesn't see what the problems there are with some models (aircrafts). And speaking of models... ...why are they still producing their old P-51D Mustang? I've read comments about their old Ta 152H (old Frog). But there are not lots of Ta 152 H's to find out there in the 1/72 scale compared to existing Mustang's from Tamiya, Airfix, Hasegava, Academy, Italeri and dare I mention the HobbyBoss P-51D? But for sure they are making nice models. Just look at their 1/72 armor vehicles. And they are probably the only real producer of vehicle in that scale today... //André B. Edited October 20, 2015 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) As a maker of 1/76 military vehicles, I can only say that the market appears to be flooded with 1/72 ones. Academy, Hasegawa, Ace, italeri, PSC, Pegasus, Heller, Dragon, Trumpeter ... even Fujimi and Airfix are producing to the aircraft scale, and I've lost track of the number of Eastern European producers. There are a lot around. It isn't clear whether you know about the Aosima Ta152H - not a lot perhaps but very good. I do have some sympathy with Revell. Were I tasked with choosing a subject for an expensive 1/32 tool, I'd reject most of the ones on your list too. Nothing wrong with the subjects for for 1/72nd, no, but a large (OK, perhaps not very large) costly tool for a Bu 133 - I don't see the sales coming. Edited October 20, 2015 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I admit to being gobsmacked at interest in the Shackelton. It is a very British market only subject AFAIC. Of an era my generation can identify with as a subject, it lacks any interest whatsoever for me. Whilst I understand there will be vociferous afficionados of the type, I see it as a very niche subject. Scratches head both Revell and Airfix should be doing one as a subject. Perhaps their market research reveals different? You could really say that in respect of a lot of kit subjects. For everyone who says "about time too", there will be someone who says " I do not understand why they did this". To use "very British market" or, "niche" subject could just as easily apply to recent kits like Supermarine Swift, or, Vought XF5-U1. And yet, we now have them!. Another example could be the oft mentioned Bristol Beaufort. I would personally love to see a Beaufort but, to many it will be a relatively unknown and possibly obscure type which would invoke head scratching among a lot of modellers wondering why a manufacturer would ever bother with it? Allan Edited October 20, 2015 by Albeback52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm1did1 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Niche subjects (as opposed to real exotica) arent such a risk as it may seem, however I believe there are caveats. There must be enough of a demand for the first batch to justify the intial research and tooling (UK market alone for some UK types will be enough). Subsequent batches are likely to have a much reduces demand and sales may slow rapidly, however as a big % of the initial debt is already covered this won't be such an issue as it will then be running as a profit maker. Some subjects can have large, continuous demand, especially of there were multiple version, operators and markings. This is one reason why there are so many Spitfire, 109s etc. They sell, and will continue to sell, and there are enough options that different manufacturers can safely avoid a direct head-head. Larger models, eg some 4 engine bombers,48th scale and above, may not sell as many kits as quickly but they can still have enough continued sales success to justify 2 simultaneous releases. Considering the Shackleton head-head it should be remembered that reasearch was likely undertaken by both Airfix and Revell long before either released their news. Either one could have dropped out or hit snags at any point giving the other the upper hand. It is only the early release of the Airfix Shack that has tipped the balance in the non-uk market. I find it odd that people have written off the Revell Shack already without seeing either reviews or plastic. Indeed there is still no news on which version they will release and an AEW will not be directly head-to-head with an Airfix MR unless the builder of the latter buys after an market conversion. Looking at the WIPs so far the Airfix Shack is far from perfect with QC and fit issues reported on a regular basis. If the Revell bird is accurate and has an easier build it may not be the dead duck some people have already proclaimed. I like to think it as: Judge the plastic, not the rumours I am also wary of glowing, problem free builds of pre-production test kits by elite builders as usually features on magazines. Unfortunately a warts & all write up, especially a negative one, doesn't win many advertising friends. A mag review gets a kit on the wishlist, but a series of peer WIPs is what promotes it to the top. ... Well that was longer than planned Edited October 20, 2015 by dpm1did1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homebee Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Another example could be the oft mentioned Bristol Beaufort. I would personally love to see a Beaufort but, to many it will be a relatively unknown and possibly obscure type which would invoke head scratching among a lot of modellers wondering why a manufacturer would ever bother with it? Allan https://www.scalemates.com/kits/181264-special-hobby-sh72026-bristol-beaufort-mk-i Special Hobby: http://kits.kitreview.com/beaufortmkiireviewgp_1.htm V.P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Just to say that Revell have shown a mock-up boxtop showing an AEW Mk.2, so I don't think that there's a lot of doubt about the variant coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 One wonder if Revell are listening to the builders the same way that Airfix are these days? But one have to knew that Revell is an German speaking company and there is no garanty that they can understand and read the common words of english. And thats probably the reason why Revell (and also Italeri) sometimes doesn't see what the problems there are with some models (aircrafts). Revell have no problem with English. All the people who work at their office in Hertfordshire that I have had the pleasure of dealing with are native English speakers, and the managers there are back and forth to HQ in Germany where they converse with many other territory managers and the big bosses in... common words of English, as you put it Andre. You could really say that in respect of a lot of kit subjects. For everyone who says "about time too", there will be someone who says " I do not understand why they did this". To use "very British market" or, "niche" subject could just as easily apply to recent kits like Supermarine Swift, or, Vought XF5-U1. And yet, we now have them!. Another example could be the oft mentioned Bristol Beaufort. I would personally love to see a Beaufort but, to many it will be a relatively unknown and possibly obscure type which would invoke head scratching among a lot of modellers wondering why a manufacturer would ever bother with it? Good point, Allan. I once had somebody in the shop who ranted on (and it was a rant) about the lack of a Blackburn Beverley (pre-Micro-Mir), as he used to see them all the time when he lived near Abingdon in the 1960s and he couldn't believe why Airfix etc haven't made one as it would be very popular. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Judge the plastic, not the rumours Quite possibly the best comment I have ever read on this site. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm1did1 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Judge the plastic, not the rumours Oddly similar to what I wrote on an X Factor thread one time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroubos Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I would like to judge the plastic, but the only way to judge the plastic is to get the kit in your hands. In many cases that is not possible, so you rely on reviews (which as stated above are quite often heavily biased by advertising income or the sponsor - I don't believe ANYTHING I read about Airfix kits in Airfix' own magazine) or WiPs threads. The latter are for me the best alternative to getting the kit in my grubby hands. That's why I love fora like this one - there may be a lot of rumours on it, but there's also a lot of useful stuff. I do agree that everything that's said about a kit by people who have not actually handled the plastic is a bit suspect... the discussions about the Airfix and Revell Shack are a great example. I've read comments by people slamming the Revell and praising the Airfix before either one was released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I find it odd that people have written off the Revell Shack already without seeing either reviews or plastic. Indeed there is still no news on which version they will release and an AEW will not be directly head-to-head with an Airfix MR unless the builder of the latter buys after an market conversion. Looking at the WIPs so far the Airfix Shack is far from perfect with QC and fit issues reported on a regular basis. If the Revell bird is accurate and has an easier build it may not be the dead duck some people have already proclaimed. I like to think it as: Judge the plastic, not the rumours ... Very fine post. I get really annoyed when a bunch of self appointed, opinionated cyber warrior "experts" start this sort of thing. With regard to the forthcoming Revell Shackleton, these "criticisms" are based solely on a previous kit (or kits) that had "issues". The Revell Halifax BI/BII being an oft quoted example. Ok - fair enough but ALL manufacturers make mistakes. Airfix have been responsible for some horrors but, I do not recall any comments along the lines of "if the Airfix.............. is any example, then the forthcoming Shackleton will be a pile of smelly stuff"! Regardless of the controversy surrounding the gestation of the Revell Shack, the anti Revell mob completely overlook such beautiful kits as the Breguet Atlantic, Heinkel HE-177, Junkers JU-290, FW-200, Blohm und Voss BV-222 & 1/32 Junkers JU-88 & Heinkel HE-111 (to name a few). I do not bother over much about "accuracy" or otherwise. I will happily buy BOTH kits because I am delighted to be getting TWO brand new Shackletons in one year. Regardless of any "issues" the Revell kit may have, I am sure it will be engineered and moulded to the same excellent standard as the kits listed above. That is all that I personally ask for. Allan ps - issues aside, the Revell Halifax B1/BII was beautifully moulded and a pleasure to build. I have three of them!! Some of the quality control issues involving the Airfix Shackleton kit (and others) make for depressing reading - whole sprues missing in some Shacks apparently. By any standards, this is unacceptable. Airfix really need to get a grip here. I can honestly say that I have never experienced the same QC problems with Revell that seem to be plaguing Airfix . Edited October 20, 2015 by Albeback52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I hope Revell release a 1/32 Hurricane to go with the 1/32 Spit. Another run of the 1/144th Hunter would be nice too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroubos Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The Shack discussion was also influenced heavily by the debate about the research done by Airfix and Revell on surviving aircraft if I remember correctly. I generally love Revell's modern toolings, it's a shame they release so few of them, and when they do, they tend not to be in my scale or my area of interest. It think the newest Revell release I have is the B-17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldcoupe Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 ps - issues aside, the Revell Halifax B1/BII was beautifully moulded and a pleasure to build. I have three of them!! Some of the quality control issues involving the Airfix Shackleton kit (and others) make for depressing reading - whole sprues missing in some Shacks apparently. By any standards, this is unacceptable. Airfix really need to get a grip here. I can honestly say that I have never experienced the same QC problems with Revell that seem to be plaguing Airfix . I wish I could say the same, I've had numerous problems with Revell's QC. Short shot clear parts and flaking/delaminating plastic were both issues I found when their Lancasters were first released. Cheers, Bill. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm1did1 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) There will always be problems with one kit or batch, all manufacturers seem to get hit with fit and/or qc problems at some point. Why Airfix stands out at the moment is it's ongoing across many different moulds. All the research, LIDAR and CAD in the world will make no difference if Kit A is found wanting on first release despite glowing mag reviews...and then kit B...and C... Airfix will win the battle but lose the war. Massive sales in the first few weeks to early builders, only to find they tail off rapidly as 'impossible build' WIPs get posted. Meanwhile other manufacters will profit with less detailed or slightly less accurate, but massively more buildable kits. Taken to an extreme you could find the later Revell Shackleton actually selling more than the early Airfix release despite despite technically being inferior. It may be a doomsday scenario of Airfix going just again, but not quite so much of them experiencing far few sales and hence far lower profits - which in turn will mean less willingness to tackle UK centric subjects. Edited October 20, 2015 by dpm1did1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlCZ Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Revell have BIG problem with quality.... Ugly Polish plastic, soft ( i say printed in When isoap) details, sink marks, burrs. And accurate errors (i was very dissapointed with bad engine nacelles in 1/32 Uhu.) or bad marketing decisions (why was new Corsair first announced as F-4U-1D and this year released kit have on box F-4U-1a ?) When i look on "vintage" kits as B-58 or B-1(1/48) i can´t understand why new kits have many too many problems, when old kits are still nice ? Edited October 21, 2015 by AlCZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroubos Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 What's 'polish plastic'? My B-17 and Ju-88 are very nicely done, my dad's C-54 is just as good. No complaints there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldcoupe Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) What's 'polish plastic'? My B-17 and Ju-88 are very nicely done, my dad's C-54 is just as good. No complaints there. The raw material is variable. The plastic sometimes flakes away in layers when sanded, something which I first noticed after production moved to Poland. It's a familiar problem from building Eastern Bloc kits inm the 1980s. My Ju-88s have been fine so far, but the Lancasters I mentioned earlier had big problems. The one I completed took a lot of Mr Surfacer to finish. Cheers, Bill. Edited October 21, 2015 by Heraldcoupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 'polish plastic' and 'Polish plastic' can be very different things. Grammar matters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) No such problems with the Halifax, either. Or rather, either Halifax. Edited October 21, 2015 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The raw material is variable. The plastic sometimes flakes away in layers when sanded, something which I first noticed after production moved to Poland. It's a familiar problem from building Eastern Bloc kits inm the 1980s. Sooo you're saying don't polish the Polish plastic? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm1did1 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Sooo you're saying don't polish the Polish plastic? John Don't polish the Polish plastic because the Polish plastic is pre-polished. x3, and then repeat quicker... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 come on revell, reissue the hunters with a new decal sheets next year pretty pleas, oh perhaps give us some more cheap hasgawa reboxes...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomW Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 come on revell, reissue the hunters with a new decal sheets next year pretty pleas, oh perhaps give us some more cheap hasgawa reboxes...... Seconded with regards the Hunters (in 1/72) especially the F.6 which is fetching silly money at the moment. Personally I'm not too concerned if Revell's new tool development slows down for a bit as long as they remember to re-release some of the gems from their back catalogue. What I don't want to see is price hikes to support American corporate greed. Regards Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Seconded with regards the Hunters (in 1/72) especially the F.6 which is fetching silly money at the moment. Personally I'm not too concerned if Revell's new tool development slows down for a bit as long as they remember to re-release some of the gems from their back catalogue. What I don't want to see is price hikes to support American corporate greed. Regards Tom the fga9 one isn't far behin price wise, only one thats gone for a decent price recently, which is now in my stash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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