Airfix Nakajima B5N2 'Kate' Grumman Wildcat F4F4 Dogfight Double

[Uncle Dick]

Box art is up - I'll be purchasing this one just for the box art, not to mention the kits, just enough time to read Joe Foss's autobiography...(not that the decals are for his aircraft), hears hoping for some external fuel tanks for the Wildcat AIRFIX

Edited September 6, 2015 by Uncle Dick

[Rabbit Leader]

The photo in post #9 of this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234972962-172-airfix-grumman-wildcat-f4f-4/

does show drop tanks on the test shot... I think your in luck.

Edit - looks like post #15 confirms that these are indeed on the sprue.

Cheers... (waiting for this one as well) Dave.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Rabbit Leader

[Uncle Dick]

Cheers Dave that is good news re drop tanks!

Dog fight double art work appears to depict a battle of Midway encounter the F-4F is Lt Commander John S Thach's personal mount (the boss of VF-3) flying from ill fated Yorktown and the Kate looks to be from the Hiryu? I know Thach shot down 3 Zeke's in one sortie during the Midway battle, but I do not know that he shot down any Kate's in the defence of Yorktown during the engagement, nevertheless the encounter is plausible as Hiryu launched Kates to attack and cripple Yorktown!

All the artwork on the US Airfix sight, the starter set - box art, seems to indicate these will be included also

Edited September 6, 2015 by Uncle Dick

[sroubos]

Is there already a price for the boxset? Should be cheaper than the Beaufighter / Typhoon combo methinks, or are the Beau and Kate in the same series?

[MikeR]

.....and the Kate looks to be from the Hiryu?

There's some debate as to what the marking were for Soryu's and Hiryu's aircraft at Midway. Originally, Soryu was No.1 ship in the 2nd CarDiv and had the BI- codes and single blue stripe whilst Hiryu was No.2 and had the BII- codes and two blue stripes. Just before Midway, Admiral Yamaguchi transferred his flag from Soryu to Hiryu, thus technically making that ship No.1 in the division.

The really big question was whether or not there was sufficiant time between Yamaguchi transferring his flag and the battle itself for the aircraft on both carriers to be re-marked (as some eyewitness testimony taken many years later states) or if it was IJN practice to actually bother repainting the markings in that particular situation.

In reality, nobody knows for sure and probably never will!

Graham Boak asked the question over on j-aircraft.org a short while back: LINK.

Mike.

[old thumper]

I am hoping for a Royal Navy Martlet at some time.

[Mitch K]

I am hoping for a Royal Navy Martlet at some time.

The hell with waiting! I'll do my own

[Milo Burgh]

That Kate is lieutenant Tomonaga´s one. He was the hikotaicho from the Hiryu air wing. He was shot down by Thach just after he drop his torpedo against the Yorktown. It missed. The action is very well described at "The first Team". http://www.amazon.com/The-First-Team-Pacific-Combat/dp/159114471X

Personel from the Hiryu recall the repainting of the aircraft markings when Yamaguchi exchanged flagships.

[Nick Millman]

There's some debate as to what the marking were for Soryu's and Hiryu's aircraft at Midway. Originally, Soryu was No.1 ship in the 2nd CarDiv and had the BI- codes and single blue stripe whilst Hiryu was No.2 and had the BII- codes and two blue stripes. Just before Midway, Admiral Yamaguchi transferred his flag from Soryu to Hiryu, thus technically making that ship No.1 in the division.

The really big question was whether or not there was sufficiant time between Yamaguchi transferring his flag and the battle itself for the aircraft on both carriers to be re-marked (as some eyewitness testimony taken many years later states) or if it was IJN practice to actually bother repainting the markings in that particular situation.

In reality, nobody knows for sure and probably never will!

Graham Boak asked the question over on j-aircraft.org a short while back: LINK.

Mike.

Discussed here as well.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234983206-wildcat-and-kate-dogfight-double-artwork-now-up-on-airfixcom/page-2

Post # 27.

Nick

[espeefan]

The real issue is that the markings are the plane Thach flew the morning of June 4th while escorting Yorktown's torpedo planes on their unsuccessful attack on Hiryu. F-23 was damaged in the attack, and remained on the Yorktown and went down with her-or was jettisoned to reduce topweight during the effort to save her, I'm not sure. Don't recall the plane he flew defending Yorktown, but it probably is in the aforementioned "The First Team". Its still a really cool Midway set, and I'll be getting one! Hope they do a nice Dauntless and maybe re-do the TBD and a TBF eventually.

[Misterfriend]

The hell with waiting! I'll do my own

Is there any modification needed to do it as a FAA bird or is it just a case of getting the right decals?

[ClaudioN]

Main points:

F4F-4 to Wildact Mk. V: delete two guns (was an FM-1, had just four guns);

F4F-4 to Martlet Mk. II: no air intake on the upper cowling, no supercharger air intakes within the engine (had the -90 engine variant)

F4F-4 to Martlet Mk. IV: replace the 14 cylinder R-1830 engine with a single-row 9 cylinder R-1820 Cyclone engine (different cowling shape)

Claudio

[Greenshirt]

F4F-4 to Martlet Mk III: non-folding wing. Fill existing panel lines and rescribe, or in 72nd scale, buy either Quickboost or Attack Squadron resin drop in wing replacement for F4F-3 / Martlet Mk III. I don't have it, but I've read the AS wing is more accurate in terms of panel line detail.

QB: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev6/5901-6000/rev5906-Quickboost-72078/00.shtm

AS: http://www.attacksquadron.pl/en/2015/02/25/f4f-3-f-16c-and-c-130-upgrade-and-conversion-sets/

Tim

[Greenshirt]

Main points:

F4F-4 to Martlet Mk. IV: replace the 14 cylinder R-1830 engine with a single-row 9 cylinder R-1820 Cyclone engine (different cowling shape)

A little clarification: the cowling is a bit larger up forward to accommodate the larger engine diameter, and is not as deep because the Cyclone only has 1 row of cylinders. The fuselage is also lengthened such that the entire length of the aircraft is not changed, the firewall moved forward a few inches. I've read the SBD-2 (?) cowl is a good fit; albeit I may not be remembering the right aircraft.

Tim

[Misterfriend]

I had a feeling it was more complicated then a coat of paint! By the sounds of it they're all pretty straight forward except for the Mk.IV. I haven't seen the parts breakdown of the kit but it would be nice if they did a Martlet boxing with either a new cowling for a Mk.II or, less likely, a new wing for a Mk.III. I'd actually quite like a yellow wings F4F-3 but I think that would be pretty straightforward to make from this, or get the AZ models one. I have to say the Grumman cats are one of my favourite series of planes.

[Uncle Dick]

Thanks for comments and links chaps - so not aircraft F-23, I guess I can live with that, Re Kate markings very interesting comments, astounding acts of bravery on both sides

[Milo Burgh]

Thach was flying Wildcat marked number 1 when he shot down Tomonaga. I don´t know if the marking was F-1 or only 1. There was a lot of exchange between carriers and land depots, and sometimes Wildcats from one squadron went to another. So is difficult to know how the Wildcats were marked.

[Rabbit Leader]

^{Just wondering, has anyone picked up one of these Dogfight Double kits yet?}

^{Seems to be available directly from Airfix - http://www.airfix.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2015/nakajima-b5n2-kate-grumman-wildcat-f4f4.html}

^{Cheers .. Dave.}

[Mike Starmer]

Points about the boxart. This shows an F4F-4 in ASW scheme 1 . F4F-4 had no provision for drop tanks. What the artwork shows is an F4F-4 tarted up as an F4F-4 in FM-1 scheme and added drop tanks. FM-1 had 4 wing guns and no underwing intakes but provision for drop tanks . Lack of basic research here. The F4F-4s initially deployed on the ASW role in the Atlantic were finished in the 1942-43 Blue-Gray/ Light Gray scheme as were the first FM-1s. Full details and drawings in 'Scale & Detail' No. 30, B. Kinzey / D. Bell, Airlife 1988 and Squadron Signal No.84, F4F Wildcat in Action.

[Gwart]

FM-2 was the one without underwing intakes.

[JasonC]

Points about the boxart. This shows an F4F-4 in ASW scheme 1 . F4F-4 had no provision for drop tanks. What the artwork shows is an F4F-4 tarted up as an F4F-4 in FM-1 scheme and added drop tanks. FM-1 had 4 wing guns and no underwing intakes but provision for drop tanks . Lack of basic research here. The F4F-4s initially deployed on the ASW role in the Atlantic were finished in the 1942-43 Blue-Gray/ Light Gray scheme as were the first FM-1s. Full details and drawings in 'Scale & Detail' No. 30, B. Kinzey / D. Bell, Airlife 1988 and Squadron Signal No.84, F4F Wildcat in Action.

I recently re-read 'The First Team', where Lundstrom suggests that drop tanks were a retrofit mod to the F4F-4, sometime around "the summer of 1942".

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oYE4AAAAQBAJ&pg=PT469&lpg=PT469&dq=f4f-4+drop+tanks&source=bl&ots=zqk2wDNuu3&sig=8IFMxm4DD_nf103y0xjrx56X0ao&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwB2oVChMI6vLio6b5xwIVcQnbCh2kCwkZ#v=onepage&q=f4f-4%20drop%20tanks&f=false

I'll also throw the following photo into the discussion. Not knowing a great deal about Wildcat variants, on the face of it it appears to be a six gun aircraft with tanks, in the Atlantic scheme. Was the gun fit the only way to tell the FM-1 apart?

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Wildcat/F4F-4_Atlantic_1.jpg

From this page:

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Wildcat/F4F_pt1.html

regards,

Jason

Edited September 15, 2015 by JasonC

[snowen250]

If you go to page 39 of 'F4F Wildcat In Action' by Don Linn there is a picture of the gift set machine landing on a carrier deck While it is labelled as an FM-1 it clearly has 6 wing guns (I reckons) and so appears to be an F4F-4 complete with a small tail. So maybe they did the research?

Edit: here is a photobucket snap of the photo: http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/schezeatodnde/media/Modellboard/FM-1VC-12.jpg.html

Are we sure it isn't a -4?

[Gwart]

[Mike Starmer]

Whoops department, lack of basic research on both parts. What I should have written was;

Points about the boxart. This shows an F4F-4 tarted up in an FM- 2 ASW 2 scheme with drop tanks. F4F-4/FM-1 had no provision for drop tanks. The FM-1 was basically an FM-1 with only 4 wing guns. The F4F-4s initially deployed on the ASW role in the Atlantic were finished in the 1942-43 Blue-Gray/ Light Gray scheme as were the first FM-1s. Full details and drawings in 'Scale & Detail' No. 30, B. Kinzey / D. Bell, Airlife 1988 and Squadron Signal No.84, F4F Wildcat in Action. If you want an FM-1, fill the outer wing guns and eliminate the gunbay panel lines. When I read that Airfix was releasing a Wildcat i hoped that it would be the FM-2 since F4F4s are already available form several companies.

[Graham Boak]

Yes Mike, except that the scheme was not limited to the FM-2 and we see in the photos above both drop tanks and six guns. The latest Airfix mag is worth a look, as it includes an article by Dana Bell with what appears to be the same aircraft but in ASW 1. (ie Light Gull Gray sides.) The artwork is reproduced as a centre-fold, but to my eye it isn't clear whether it is meant to be a 2 or 3-colour scheme. I think it is meant to be the 3-colour scheme (ASW 1) judgng by a demarcation on the lower fuselage. The caption also refers to the Pacific, but I think we can put that down to the pressure of deadlines.