SeaVenom Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 On a different point for a sec. The camouflage on that Lightning looks either hand painted or masked with a very hard edge. I've seen people do the camouflage with a much softer edge. I wonder if in some cases it would be better to hand paint camouflage than airbrush it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 On a different point for a sec. The camouflage on that Lightning looks either hand painted or masked with a very hard edge. I've seen people do the camouflage with a much softer edge. I wonder if in some cases it would be better to hand paint camouflage than airbrush it? ....or just use masking tape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaVenom Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 ....or just use masking tape? Yes but airbrush's are a bit of a pain to use so what I'm wondering is if sometimes it would be just as good to paint the camouflage on freehand and much easier? I've done it on some models and it looks fairly good but it's obviously not so easy to get a softer edge. Looking at that pic though if a lot of planes have that hard edged camouflage maybe a softer edge wouldn't be so accurate anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsyouruncle Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 The camouflage on that Lightning looks either hand painted or masked with a very hard edge. I've seen people do the camouflage with a much softer edge. I've just been looking through my Lightning books and there's quite a mix on the camouflage Lightnings. A lot seem to be mainly hard edged but if you look closer, particularly in the Ian Black books, quite a few have some soft edges mixed in with them. There's one aircraft I've found with a hard front edge on the green whilst having a soft rear edge. Quite a bit of scope for some nice panel variation there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Yes but airbrush's are a bit of a pain to use so what I'm wondering is if sometimes it would be just as good to paint the camouflage on freehand and much easier? I've done it on some models and it looks fairly good but it's obviously not so easy to get a softer edge. Looking at that pic though if a lot of planes have that hard edged camouflage maybe a softer edge wouldn't be so accurate anyway. If an airbrush is a pain to use, you must be doing it wrong!! I get no pain from mine!!! That aside....at the end of the day this hobby isn't prescriptive..you don't have to follow a set of guidelines all the time, you can use whatever method you are happier with. For me an airbrush is no more of a pain to use than a paintbrush, in fact like any piece of equipment once you learn how to use it, it becomes a pleasurable experience. You can do so much more with it than a paintbrush....but, each to their own! Hard edge camouflage is quite easy to mask using thin Tamiya tape, no problem at all.... Edited September 28, 2015 by Bill Clark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi Kes, Yes, I totally understand what you're saying there. I'm not a 'measurer' as a rule and I don't go out deliberately looking for errors. There was just something here that was catching my eye that just slightly niggled me as I couldn't see a simple way around it. Anyhow, all it took in the end was a little thought and then just a case of plunging in and giving it a go. Here's a quick link to my way of 'solving' this and in the end, what I thought would be horrific (cutting down the entire spine) proved actually very simple and as you say I've really enjoyed the challenge (from the point I could see it was going to work for my eyes onwards) and am now very happy that this has been a part of my build. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234988708-airfix-48th-scale-lightning-f6-pre-wip-spine-mod/?hl=lightning I'll be tweaking it a little more no doubt, but I can now enjoy carrying on with the rest of the build and have also solved the gun muzzle area thing. It's a fine kit as it stands anyway and I have nothing but praise for Airfix for producing it anyway and who this week sent me out a complete set of replacement decals (after I'd asked if it was possible to buy a set with mine having faded). Most excellent service indeed. Cheers Bob. That is a neat solution, nicely done, like the innovation. . . . Kes (appreciates problem solvers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaVenom Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 If an airbrush is a pain to use, you must be doing it wrong!! I get no pain from mine!!! That aside....at the end of the day this hobby isn't prescriptive..you don't have to follow a set of guidelines all the time, you can use whatever method you are happier with. For me an airbrush is no more of a pain to use than a paintbrush, in fact like any piece of equipment once you learn how to use it, it becomes a pleasurable experience. You can do so much more with it than a paintbrush....but, each to their own! Hard edge camouflage is quite easy to mask using thin Tamiya tape, no problem at all.... I'm not saying it's a real pain but I'm sure many would agree that mixing up paints etc and getting the right consistency can be a bit of a pain not to mention accidents and paint splatter etc which even the most experienced users can get plus acrylics which can clog up the airbrush if you're not careful.......... whereas all you have to do with paints is stir them and paint them on. Obviously you can do more with an airbrush but I was just pointing out that in some instances it might be just as effective to use a brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I'm not saying it's a real pain but I'm sure many would agree that mixing up paints etc and getting the right consistency can be a bit of a pain not to mention accidents and paint splatter etc which even the most experienced users can get plus acrylics which can clog up the airbrush if you're not careful.......... whereas all you have to do with paints is stir them and paint them on. Obviously you can do more with an airbrush but I was just pointing out that in some instances it might be just as effective to use a brush. As I said earlier, each to their own. For those of you who find an airbrush too difficult, or even a bit of a pain to use,then a paint brush will work. I would suspect though that the vast majority of airbrush users would have mastered how to mix paint by now and to apply it too....and it's easy to avoid clogging with Acrylic's.....Rocket Science, it ain't!! But you are right...you can do a lot more with an airbrush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsyouruncle Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Right. It's official I am too obsessed. I'm sure I don't go looking for things intentionally and I'm not a 'rivet counter' at all. Today I was really relaxing, just adding panels onto the fuselage and thought I'd drill out the little holes where they're scribed in the cannon blisters on the belly gun pack (which I did). Why did I then go and check them against my shots of the real thing? You'd think both sides would be symmetrical? Wrong. On the kit, the holes could be said to be in 5 vertical columns, tapering from the front numbering:- 6, 5, 4, 3, 2. On the real thing, Starboard side has 5 columns from the front numbering:- 7, 6, 5,4, 2 and on the Port side, only 4 columns numbering:- 7, 6, 5, 4. So I'm now counting holes. If I get that new Daco book for Christmas, I'm not going to look inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daco Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) If I get that new Daco book for Christmas, I'm not going to look inside it. Well, it seems my book won't be ready for Christmas after all, there's still a lot of work ahead with creating the captions. So the release will be something for 2016 as I'm no longer going to rush it... On the other hand, to help you with the spine already: this part of the spine is different between the early and later marks, and Airfix seems to have done the early mark version. The F.3 / F.6 / F.53 have a bigger battery than the F.1 / F.2 and as such this part of the spine had to be enlarged. So try to find similar pictures of the area of the F.1 / F.2 to be able to compare the spine angles... Danny DACO Products www.dacoproducts.com Edited November 22, 2015 by daco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSheep214 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Just finished reading this thread. To be honest, does it really matter in the eyes of the average modeler? Not that I'm saying you're being too obsessed with the kit but do remember, this is suppose to be a relaxing, fun hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsyouruncle Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 does it really matter in the eyes of the average modeler? Not that I'm saying you're being too obsessed with the kit but do remember, this is suppose to be a relaxing, fun hobby No of course it doesn't really matter, BlackSheep. It's 'horses for courses' and 'all things to all people'. This is all just for fun and my last post about these holes hopefully had a hint of sarcasm in it. Believe it or not, I actually enjoy finding out about small details. The model kit becomes part of a way of finding out more about the actual subject matter (which I confess to being fascinated with) and I end up enjoying the whole experience. It also takes me into a world where I can immerse myself with 'silly detail' and forget about real serious stuff going on in my normal work. My particular aim in this case was to try and be as accurate as I can within my own knowledge, skills and limits and so I just cross check against the real thing now and then to see if we're matching up. Sometimes I wonder if I look too close as I don't always find previous mention of particular bits, but I like it to look right to my eyes if possible (at least on the outside-I won't probably bother as much as some others on here will in the bottom of the cockpit or the wheelbays, for instance). If anyone's interested in the Cannon blister holes thing and wants to 'get involved in it' then this may, or may not, be useful to you, depending on what you already know. If you're going to be offended by it and think I'm delving in way too deep then I do apologise for my offences and please look away now. Here we go then. 'Holes in cannon blisters':- I found this fairly pointless level of detail out having drilled out the moulded holes on the Airfix kit and on just checking the look of mine against the photos of the real thing. I found out that the holes were in different places on the kit to the aircraft, that they differed in number and that they're also different from port to starboard. I thought I'd have a go at drilling them in their correct places so set about trying to pin down where they should be. An RAF Regiment Sgt once told me that 'time spent in recce in rarely wasted' so I figured it was worth spending a morning finding out about it. ............Mmmmmm, we'll see. Observations are best noted I think with some imagery :- Port Side:- and Starboard:- Obviously there are variations with the positions of the vertical lines on the belly gun packs. I used the rear fastener on the belly gun pack and the way that one variant of line positioning 'straddles' this. I called this 'variant A'. Using this you can work out the relative positions of the holes in the cannon blisters. With the variations in line positions it's hard to pinpoint the hole positions using these alone. To summarise, there are less holes on the port side than starboard and the holes are further forward on the starboard side. This is how I'm going to drill 'em out anyway (I filled the others back in). There are lots of other details to try and replicate to try and match the real thing I'm sure. For one, I think it's a shame that no-one seems to do the 'danger hot exhaust gases' stencils that we see in these shots on the belly pack in their decals any more. I know Hasegawa did them in their old 72nd scale kit, but I don't see them in anyone elses decals now (there are two varieties seen on '80s airframes in photos). For another, no-one seems to do the small stencils which look obvious on the real thing such as the 'BIN119' serial seen in this shot or the yellow rectangle with the numbers in by the missile pylon (that one was also in the Hasegawa 72nd scale kit, so it's a shame that they're missing now, especially with re-releases of kits. These little details get lost as surviving airframes get painted over and I point them out in the hope that someone might take some notice. this part of the spine is different between the early and later marks, and Airfix seems to have done the early mark version. The F.3 / F.6 / F.53 have a bigger battery than the F.1 / F.2 and as such this part of the spine had to be enlarged. So try to find similar pictures of the area of the F.1 / F.2 to be able to compare the spine angles... Hi Danny, was it you I spoke to at SMW asking about your Eagle book? I've had a look at a few photos reference what you're saying about the spine but my eyes can't see it yet. Will keep looking though. Cheers, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daco Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) was it you I spoke to at SMW asking about your Eagle book? Hi Bob Yes that was me I had a closer look at your spine problem, and although there's a subtile difference between the early and late Marks, it's not the difference that Airfix is giving: Middle = F.1 / Bottom = F.6 red line is based on F.6 and here's a comparison for the gun panel for your holes: Feel free to find more differences, it aids me too to have a closer look at everything :-) Danny www.dacoproducts.com Edited November 25, 2015 by daco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsyouruncle Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Excellent bit of info there Danny, thanks very much for that. Just been trawling through some older shots of early marks to confirm what you posted (I've been mainly focussed in the 1980s and so wasn't aware that previous marks have quite a different profile around the that part of the spine). In the shots I've been looking at, to my eyes you are correct, there's certainly a difference with the F1s and F1As compared to the F3. The spine on these doesn't look to bulge at the sides or change it's topline profile from the rest of the spine at all, (at what I was referring to as point C) and looks more slender. In the shots I've been looking through, the F2/F2A spine looks to be the same as the later F3 and F6, but that might just mean I've not found the right shots yet? One giveaway on the natural metal finished ones (besides looking at the topline) is the way the light catches the 'bulge' in the panel on the sides of the spine forward of (what I call) point C in photos. This 'early spine' would be a lovely bit of individual micro-detailing to add if you wanted to do an early Firebirds/Tigers/Tremblers machine with mainly just a bit of sanding, I'm thinking. Thanks again for pointing that one out. Lovely bit of extra detail. Cheers Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary West Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 As long as you dont present a parked Lightning with the air brakes open, its all good :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Edit: post deleted Edited November 25, 2015 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Following this..just got myself a F6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsyouruncle Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think Danny really was onto something here when he pointed out that there are differences in the side profiles of different marks of Lightning in the fuselage topline. I certainly hadn't noticed that one before. I've been focussed on the F6 mainly (with a little F3 thrown in). I've not read about these differences anywhere before and I've not seen any plans previously which highlight this? That might be a possible reason behind differing profiles? From what I can see in photos so far (obviously I don't have any real ones to compare with here), the F6, F3 and F2 look to have similar, if not the same, spine profile behind the canopy, whereas the F1 is different. If anyone can find shots that prove otherwise then please let me know because I'm interested and would like to know for sure? Here are some of my observations on the F6 just rear of the canopy in photos, starting with the F6 :- Kit profile:- Possible modification suggestion:- As Danny said, the Lightning F1 looks quite different around this area. Two shots of the F1s at Cosford and Duxford:- Slightly different mod required for this shape. Wondered if anyone would have any definitive plans for types from the factory lying around or noticed anything different to this? Cheers Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Good summation, thanks! bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 That last pic shows the difference the best...it could be termed a one step or a two step spine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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