Jump to content

Hunter crashes at Shoreham


Recommended Posts

I am abhorred and disgusted at the 'Armchair experts' on the television this morning, with programs such as the Wright Stuff procrastinating and running a telephone call in session on his so called current affairs show. The word "Stunt" flying is being bandied about far too much by the media. Stunt flying is the remit of something harking back to the interwar years. All US county fair and barnstormers. The clueless media rears its ugly head yet again. :nono:

My heart truly goes out to all that have been affected. Nothing can prepare the personnel from the Emergency Services to have to deal with a major incident such as this. Many of us on this forum are ex forces or emergency services. I feel that we have a genuine affinity for those involved as we have all had to deal with major incidents at some point in our careers, whether we are ex serving or serving. The aftermath and post incident debriefs for those involved will be time consuming and stressful. This also applies for the public, If any are feeling traumatised by what they saw I can only pray they seek help. There are support organisations and mechanisms in place to provide after care for those involved.

A sad and tragic incident. :(

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at Mildenhall for the T28, and the Frecci Tricolori Gina, and the Vintage Pair. The P-38 and Firefly losses were pilot error. Nothing to do with the aircraft. I believe only the Gina was mechanical problem, and the pilot rode it into the ground to avoid a Gypsy encampment.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Loopings and similar maneuvers so close to the ground are always a risk IMO, restricting those to a minimum altitude would be a possible solution, also to take total forbidding of air shows from the table.

Doesn't matter if a pilot error or a material problem cause any problems.

The guys in WWII when they arrived back at their airfield had to painfully learn that too that victory rolls in ground vicinity were a big risk.

Of course accidents can never be fully prevented, but one less is better than one more.

Just my two cents.

I feel for everyone involved and affected ;(

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Loopings and similar maneuvers so close to the ground are always a risk IMO, restricting those to a minimum altitude would be a possible solution, also to take total forbidding of air shows from the table.

There already are minimums & many other restrictions in place for just about any manouvere in an airshow routine.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen 2 accidents at shows over the years (1 fatal). For those that witnessed Saturdays crash first hand, I will say it does affect you.

For me, after seeing the P-63 crash at Biggin, the next couple of airshows I attended, I found myself feeling rather jittery and anxious whilst watching certain displays, with one in particular sticking in my mind. I was at Duxford. It was a very windy day, (very tricky flying conditions)and I can vividly remember a sense of trepidation, almost like I was waiting for something to happen. The Twin Pioneer did a display, showing off it's low speed capabilities. With the wind, it was almost coming to a stand still in the air. I could barely watch and found myself wishing they would just land the bloody thing.

Like many things, it is something that you just need to take time to get over.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not be surprised at the amount of biased reporting and muck stiring by the BBC they don't report the news they make the news they like to get people fighting and make people's life a missery they thrive on it and let's not forget there are plenty of people in this country who want all flying of such aircraft stopped like the Brentwaters situation where I understand a couple "apparently" moved into the area with the sole intention of stopping the flying of classic aircraft and had successfuly done this in the past I say "apparently" , Wellesbourne and XM655 is under threat as is XH558 which I now understand is actually stoping flying for polictical/funding reasons rather than actuall safety issues. I have not watched much news but in the few times ive put it one the BBC make my blood boil with they usual pschological tactics to speak in a certain emotional tone and keep mentioning things like "many people are saying we should only have airshows over the sea. Trying to manipulate peoples opinions and sculpt a social consensus through fear as per usual.

Being at sea don't make it an safer I was at southport last year when the Provost nearly went into the beach near the Hilton hotel.

Edited by robvulcan
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

"People" as in some comments i have read on other forums , both pilots and non pilots , "happened after" A as in the p-38 crashing after a roll , the firefly after a loop etc and " worth considering" as in maybe not doing, Only my personal opinion on things.

Ah, OK with you now. My opinion is that it would be a foolish person who pre-empted the outcome of the AAIB investigation and concluded that aerobatic manoeuvers in air displays carry an unacceptably high risk of death or serious injury to the general public. That's not to suggest it couldn't happen, but I wouldn't stake my mortgage on it.

Sadly, banning "loop the loops" (whatever they are) by "stunt pilots" (Tom Cruise?) over "built-up areas" (the edge of an airfield) in "WW2 aircraft" (a Hunter?) cannot undo the ongoing effects of this tragedy.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

That is true, I suppose its only my opinion as seeing planes looping and performing certain manouvers doesnt do much for me. I was basically trying to say that if they listen to all of the garbage thats being spouted about banning airshows , then i would rather see them limit certain manouvers than ban an airshow altogether.

If it gets to that stage. We do live in a fear controled society and reactionary solutions it seems. Thats not to take away from the tradgedy. But how we choose to react to the event is a different situation to the event itself. The media seem to thrive on this aspect of any news story.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the BBC should be ashamed of itself. They black out the minute the jet crashed but were ok to show a video of the aftermath with burning cars , how tasteless is that , especially knowing people have lost loved ones.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Is your concern that their age makes them more likely to have acquired the canny skills required to defeat their medical examination? Or is there a problem with the tests?

All i`m saying is it`s a cruel fact that with age our mental faculties diminish despite how fit you are, if your thought and reaction time slows only by a fraction of a second that could mean the difference between life or death! so if you look at it that way maybe yes the the medical examination process has got a problem!.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I too am always sick to death of all these experts who come out of the woodwork every time there is an incident at an event like this..."stunt pilots", "stunt" this, "stunt" that, as though it is all some barnstorming display from the 30's. In that respect, one could say that the something like the wing walker displays come close to that description, and it was only a year or two ago there was a crash featuring one of these in the States. Cause? Pilot error. 95% of all crashes are due to pilot error. Humans are fallible and we make mistakes, misjudgements. Always have, always will.

I have seen some very impressive displays from the likes of the RAF Typhoon (outside loops always fascinate me!), to the little Grob Tutor, to the Tucano, to the incredible flying of Extra's and Sukhoi 26's, not to mention the vectored thrust brilliance of Sukhoi's, Mig's et al. I'm sure some of these armchair experts would have kittens witnessing some of the flying these do, all totally under control, and not in the realm of "stunt" flying at all. Indeed, that term seems to conjure up an image of some slightly tipsy crop duster jock saying "what ho, I'm going to fly upside down through that hangar. Hic!" If you want stunts, then go watch aBond film, or Tom Cruise hanging off an Atlas.

I used to remark that the air shows in 100 years may well be a bunch of kids with their Playstation controllers, flying their UAV's and quad copters past a bunch of open-mouthed onlookers, all waving their Taranis flags. From some of the comments I've read on other forums and news sites, it would appear that a lot of people would be happy for all displays to be banned and for aircraft that either be stuck in a museum, flying for the armed forces, or carrying them to Marbella.

Yes, accidents happen, I would suggest more in the civil field than the airshow, but does that ever stop anyone from taking their flights? Maybe here or there. But there are also people who will not sail in case the ship goes down, people who will not fly in case the plane goes down... If we all lived our lives NOT doing anything IN CASE something happens whilst doing it, we'd all be locked in our padded houses with plastic cutlery eating off paper plates. The pilots who partake in air shows do so because they want to, because they love doing what they do, and first and foremost in their minds is the condition of their aircraft and the safety of the public. Look at the likes of Farnborough from the 50's and compare those displays to today's, Health and Safety would be spitting fire if we still had show regulations - or lack of - like that today, regardless how cool most of us would feel being 200 feet from a supersonic fly past !

I had a conversation with someone who, when I pointed out the fatal crashes that have occurred in Grand Prix, stated "ah well that's a sport, air shows are not". This is true, but does this make Formula 1 any more essential or necessary than an airshow? No. It is not cumpolsory to have either, and whilst you could argue the whole "ahh but what of the jobs lost" etc... it still doesn't make this, or any other sport out there, a compulsory essential to life. Airshows are, or certainly have been, the second most popular outdoor summer event in the UK (no idea about other countries), and whilst I feel another tightening of regulations is on the books down the line, I hope that common sense prevails in the end, and the critics don't get a ban of any sort regarding what everybody on this forum loves to see, beautiful aircraft, past and present, up where they belong.

I don't think I can say anymore, as it's either already been said better than I can by others

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another note of common sense, c/o the British Air Display Association:

The British Air Display Association would like to react to the tragic accident that occurred in Shoreham on Saturday August 22nd and first of all to express our support and condolences for the families and friends of all those affected.
UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety. Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago. This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.
The UK has extensive rules that cover airshow organisation, display aircraft heights, speeds and manoeuvres, flying supervision and a special examination and authorisation process for display pilots with graduated steps from simple flypasts to formation and aerobatics approvals. In this regard, we are the envy of many other nations, not just in Europe but also across the Atlantic.
The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred. Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful. This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions. It is certainly not a time for uninformed or mis-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.
Air Accident Investigation Branch experts will establish the facts, as quickly as possible. Then will we will know whether this was a tragic one-off accident or whether there is more that can be done. If there are lessons from this, that will be something for all involved in airshows to consider.
Our Association will continue to encourage, promote and advance Safety and Standards in British Air Displays.
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we steer this one back on track and away from slightly political Beeb bashing (yeah, we know they're crap & trying to brainwash us). Yes Rob, I'm looking at you <_<

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

All i`m saying is it`s a cruel fact that with age our mental faculties diminish despite how fit you are, if your thought and reaction time slows only by a fraction of a second that could mean the difference between life or death! so if you look at it that way maybe yes the the medical examination process has got a problem!.

But an airshow routine doesn't require reaction times down to a fraction of second otherwise they would be too dangerous for anyone to fly. Routines are obviously carefully planned and practiced, it's not like a racing driver who often has to react quickly to prevent losing control of a car.

Sure if things go really wrong then reaction time could make a difference, but it shouldn't really get to that point. A 20 year old who had a restless sleep the night before would probably have a slowly reaction time than a 50 something who had a good sleep, so where do you draw the line?

Edited by Tbolt
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we steer this one back on track and away from slightly political Beeb bashing (yeah, we know they're crap & trying to brainwash us). Yes Rob, I'm looking at you <_<

Sorry Mike will do just turned the TV off as it's not doing me any good :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

All i`m saying is it`s a cruel fact that with age our mental faculties diminish despite how fit you are, if your thought and reaction time slows only by a fraction of a second that could mean the difference between life or death! so if you look at it that way maybe yes the the medical examination process has got a problem!.

Have you ever sat an aircrew medical? Just wondering...

It's a damned sight more thorough than an HGV medical. Do you drive? If so do you use the motorways? Ever thought what death & destruction could be caused by that 40 ton artic bearing down on you at 60 mph driven my a decrepid 59 year old who last had a medical at 55 & doesn't know he has since developed a serious heart condition and is at this moment trying to input a new destination on his satnav...

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Stop it! there is no need for these assumptions and aggrevated responses!! If you want to go debating these matters then take it down the pub.

Bear in mind that they are still searching for bodies; families are still distraught at what has happened and this is a site for modellers to discuss modelling.

Mike

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

All i`m saying is it`s a cruel fact that with age our mental faculties diminish despite how fit you are, if your thought and reaction time slows only by a fraction of a second that could mean the difference between life or death! so if you look at it that way maybe yes the the medical examination process has got a problem!.

Good point. Perhaps I should give my driving licence back since I'm sure my reactions are not what they were in my 20s. That's a lethal weapon I routinely pilot around public roads without the synapse speed that could conceivably (with just a little consideration of statistics) save countless lives. Hang on, just got to go and get my cycle helmet. :)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting to see So many different opinions on what was a tragic accident beyond the control of the organisers of the Airshow. The media frenzy is to be expected in this day of 24 hour news time filling exaggeration speculation etc. They will move on in another couple of days to something more important in their eyes.

Have to admit George Bacon was a beacon of common sense on breakfast time this morning unlike other so called "experts" but it's fair to say the whole Britmodeller community is saddened by the recent event imho.

We all love modelling and I'm sure as has been pointed out we almost all attend Airshows during the season which is why feelings may Have been a little high on this post, which is only to be expected as our love of old aircraft performing and allowing us to model is something we all take for granted until incidents like this.

It brings home just how precious and fragile life can be at times we least expect.

I feel sorry all the families who lost someone and for Andy Hill's family who must be enduring a nightmare right now. May they all find some peace and closure in the coming months

Eamonn

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting to see So many different opinions on what was a tragic accident beyond the control of the organisers of the Airshow. The media frenzy is to be expected in this day of 24 hour news time filling exaggeration speculation etc. They will move on in another couple of days to something more important in their eyes.

Have to admit George Bacon was a beacon of common sense on breakfast time this morning unlike other so called "experts" but it's fair to say the whole Britmodeller community is saddened by the recent event imho.

We all love modelling and I'm sure as has been pointed out we almost all attend Airshows during the season which is why feelings may Have been a little high on this post, which is only to be expected as our love of old aircraft performing and allowing us to model is something we all take for granted until incidents like this.

It brings home just how precious and fragile life can be at times we least expect.

I feel sorry all the families who lost someone and for Andy Hill's family who must be enduring a nightmare right now. May they all find some peace and closure in the coming months

Eamonn

Exactly right , I attend lots of airshows and do lots of modelling the Hunter being a favourite and that recently I have not done much modelling but was just painting one of my Hunters when told the news does stimulate lots of thought and emotion.

Link to post
Share on other sites

sadly as far as the media is concerned this is a gift horse, as it falls at the right time (for them) in the 'Silly Season'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_season

Motivation[edit]

Typically, the latter half of the summer is slow in terms of newsworthy events. Newspapers as their primary means of income rely on advertisements, which rely on readers seeing them, but historically newspaper readership drops off during this time. In the United Kingdom, Parliament takes its summer recess, so that parliamentary debates and Prime Minister's Questions, which generate much news coverage, do not happen. This period is also a summer school holiday, when many families with children choose to take holidays, and there is accordingly often a decline of business news, as many employers reduce their activity. Similar recesses are typical of legislative bodies elsewhere. To retain (and attract) subscribers, newspapers would print attention-grabbing headlines and articles to boost sales, often to do with minor moral panics or child abductions. For example, the extensive British press coverage devoted to Operation Irma, a humanitarian airlift during the Siege of Sarajevo, was criticized as a "silly season" tactic.[2]

But with rise of the sound bite and instant media, I have cynical vision of news desk editors rubbing their hands in glee with at the amount of video and images available.

With the rise in Social Media, everyone can express their opinion as well.

If the victims of this had been as a result of a car crash, it would have made the local news and been forgotten the next day, unless it involved someone famous.

I'm not trying to belittle the tragedy of anyone being killed, just on the media frenzy and the rest of the circus.

I have one question/observation, which I hope is not taken as being speculation, as I am not a pilot, but I have not seen mentioned as a possible factor.

It was very hot, humid and still air day in the area on Saturday,( I had gone down to watch from by the river, and was delayed, so fortunately missed the crash), but could this have affected air density at low level and thus ability to pull out of a dive?

a quick google of this "air density affects flying" brings up this for example

http://www.decodedscience.com/aircraft-performance-in-relation-to-atmospheric-pressure-density-and-temperature/4889

Aircraft Performance and Temperature Variation

Increase in temperature of a parcel of air creates hyperactivity amongst the air molecules; the molecules are energized and thus behave in a hyper manner to utilize this extra energy. The motion of the air molecules becomes highly erratic, and they collide with each other. These collisions expand the total volume of that specific parcel of air, thus decreasing density.
If an aircraft in flight enters from a parcel of air having a temperature of 20 degree Celsius, into a parcel of air having a temperature of 40 degree Celsius (while maintaining the same altitude), its performance would be significantly decreased.
The increase in temperature gives way to decreased air density, which in turn affects the aircraft performance characteristics in terms of reduced lifting ability and reduced mass of air entering the cylinders for combustion.

the airfield is in a natural 'bowl' of hills, with a river at the bottom, by the sea, perhaps creating a 'pocket' of hot humid air in the back of the valley bottom, this makes more sense if you know the area, I don't know how obvious this if from photos of the site.

It has been mentioned by eyewitnesses that the aircraft seemed to lose power and lift, and the aircraft was flying towards the back of the valley, but the heat that day has not been mentioned so far in this thread, which strikes me as a surprising omission.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another note of common sense, c/o the British Air Display Association:

The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred. Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful. This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions. It is certainly not a time for uninformed or mis-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.

Stop it! there is no need for these assumptions and aggrevated responses!! If you want to go debating these matters then take it down the pub.

Bear in mind that they are still searching for bodies; families are still distraught at what has happened and this is a site for modellers to discuss modelling.

Mike

Wholeheartedly agree with Dave, especially having read the post by T7 Models.

Lets leave it to the professionals and restrict our comments to those of condolence.

Chris

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...