Jump to content

Hunter crashes at Shoreham


Recommended Posts

Truly heart breaking. My thoughts are with the deceased, injured and all who witnessed this tragedy. My sincerest condolences to their loved ones and families.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What a sad time for the air show season at present. With the Gnat, Spitfire and now the Hunter- all within a few weeks.

This latest tragedy is so dreadful, my hope is that the death toll is now final and that for all those who died, they didn't suffer.

My heart now goes out to those who lost their life, especially to their families who now are grieving for loved ones. It too goes out to the injured, the witnesses (particularly those in the immediate vicinity of the crash) and the show organisers and the pilot. It is they who now need a great deal of support and time to heal.

As A&E ambulance staff, my thoughts also are for all the emergency service members who have had to deal with the incident. Situations of this magnitude are very rare, thank goodness, but even though you prepare yourself en route to a job, one like this is will be very traumatic to deal with in the days and weeks ahead, I hope they have the strength and the full support of family and work colleagues that they will need to get over this.

Whatever the outcome, I pray we have no more for a very long time.

Adrian

Edited by Radpoe Spitfire
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the very terrible accident! My condolences to those who has lost their relatives. I pray for all those who died. Let them rest in peace. And let all those who was wounded be healthy as soon as possible.

I also understand how difficult it is to witness this. In 2002, I've been watching on TV a live report from the air show in Lviv, Ukraine, when Su-27 had killed 77 people, including 28 children, on the ground. I can still see those images in my eyes...

Valeriy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Heard John Humphries on this subject this morning and it's depressing; hectoring questioning of an (actual) expert (rather than the usual uninformed in-house reporter) with seemingly the sole attempt of getting a knee-jerk "admission" that all air displays should be held over the sea so that this could never happen again. The guy was very patient, considered and respectful in his replies in which he repeated:

* There is high public demand for air displays

* All accidents are regrettable and (by definition) to be avoided

* Aviation safety is complex and more effectively improved by investigation of the causes of accidents rather than their aftermath

My thoughts are with the family and friends of those affected by this tragedy. The point on the road is one regularly used by cyclist friends of mine on their way to and from the Downs and it was simply luck that they were not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Kirk

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately we are going to see this response from some of the news media for the next few days, I'm afraid.

It seems to me these days that shock and sensationalism sells news, not the full facts known as they develope.

Sadly it's easy to jump to conclusions in the aftermath, if the general public were aware of how tight aviation regulations are, they'd hopefully realise that without them, we would likely see far more tragedy than we do now.

It's a bitter pill for all involved to swallow and negative reaction is often the earliest. No doubt there are some onlookers who are using what has happened to fuel thier lobby against air shows, sadly it is often very narrow minded. For now the reality is to look after those affected, they need all the support that can be offered at this time.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It does get frustrating, some one just text in to the BBC news channel saying they should stop flying these vintage aircraft, they are completely clueless about aviation safety and regulations. As for holding all shows over the sea that is just ridiculous - all these people say all this then jump in there car and driver off where they are much more likely to get killed by being hit be another car! But because they drive a car every day and they have never got seriously injured they consider that low risk, even though it's a lot higher.

Edited by Tbolt
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

I was there at Shoreham on the Saturday and witnessed the whole horrific event unfold before me.

I'm not going to speculate as to what happened.

All I can remember is the aircraft arriving along the coast from the East (Having transited down from North Weald), flying along the runway straight and level before pulling up and right to complete a 3 quarter role to the right. The pilot then pulled the aircraft back round to face the crowd at 45 degrees on. The aircraft then pitched up vertically into the loop manouevre. During this move, I did notice 2 things. Firstly, the flaps were deployed and secondly, there was hardly any 'jet noise' from the engine. It does look like the pilot had a problem with the aircraft and did what he could to try and bring it down in a safe place but alas, things didn't go to plan as can be seen by the news footage.

The next thing I remember is thinking that he wouldn't pull out of that dive as he was at too extreme an angle at too low an altitude. Then it disappeared behind the trees to be replaced by a huge black ball of fiery smoke.

The following day, my dad (who was also there), was playing golf with another member who (by chance), happened to be one of the firefighters that assisted in the post crash ordeal. He was told by the firefighter that the cockpit area had detached itself from the rest of the airframe after the initial crash which meant the pilot had a lucky escape. Yes he is still in critical condition in hospital and my thoughts are with him and everyone affected by this rarest of rare tragedies.

The British Air Display Association (BADA) have said that this is the first time that civilians have been killed during a British Air Display since 1952 when John Derry flying the DH 110 (Sea vixen prototype) broke up in mid air at Farnborough. Subsequent parts of the aircraft, including the engines, then crashed into the crowd.

Air displays are designed in such a way to minimize danger to anyone, especially the crowd. It is very unfortunate that Saturdays incident happened on the A27.

I was also unfortunate enough to witness the demise of Hawker Hurricane G-HURR at Shoreham in 2007 where we lost Brian Brown. The media reported it but that was about it as it was just aircraft and pilot lost.

I'll admit that some of the media reports are wholly inaccurate and somewhat disgusting. Fabricating news as the information is slow to come out.

I'm sure the airshow industry will continue to improve and I hope Shoreham continues in the future.

The last thing anyone wants is for airshows to be banned. Historic aircraft need to be kept flying to ensure that the younger generation can appreciate what went on in the past. But, I digress.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

I was there at Shoreham on the Saturday and witnessed the whole horrific event unfold before me.

I'm not going to speculate as to what happened.

All I can remember is the aircraft arriving along the coast from the East (Having transited down from North Weald), flying along the runway straight and level before pulling up and right to complete a 3 quarter role to the right. The pilot then pulled the aircraft back round to face the crowd at 45 degrees on. The aircraft then pitched up vertically into the loop manouevre. During this move, I did notice 2 things. Firstly, the flaps were deployed and secondly, there was hardly any 'jet noise' from the engine. It does look like the pilot had a problem with the aircraft and did what he could to try and bring it down in a safe place but alas, things didn't go to plan as can be seen by the news footage.

The next thing I remember is thinking that he wouldn't pull out of that dive as he was at too extreme an angle at too low an altitude. Then it disappeared behind the trees to be replaced by a huge black ball of fiery smoke.

The following day, my dad (who was also there), was playing golf with another member who (by chance), happened to be one of the firefighters that assisted in the post crash ordeal. He was told by the firefighter that the cockpit area had detached itself from the rest of the airframe after the initial crash which meant the pilot had a lucky escape. Yes he is still in critical condition in hospital and my thoughts are with him and everyone affected by this rarest of rare tragedies.

The British Air Display Association (BADA) have said that this is the first time that civilians have been killed during a British Air Display since 1952 when John Derry flying the DH 110 (Sea vixen prototype) broke up in mid air at Farnborough. Subsequent parts of the aircraft, including the engines, then crashed into the crowd.

Air displays are designed in such a way to minimize danger to anyone, especially the crowd. It is very unfortunate that Saturdays incident happened on the A27.

I was also unfortunate enough to witness the demise of Hawker Hurricane G-HURR at Shoreham in 2007 where we lost Brian Brown. The media reported it but that was about it as it was just aircraft and pilot lost.

I'll admit that some of the media reports are wholly inaccurate and somewhat disgusting. Fabricating news as the information is slow to come out.

I'm sure the airshow industry will continue to improve and I hope Shoreham continues in the future.

The last thing anyone wants is for airshows to be banned. Historic aircraft need to be kept flying to ensure that the younger generation can appreciate what went on in the past. But, I digress.

On the Hunter they use 23 degrees of flap for displaying and only retract them for the high speed passes. Edited by Tbolt
Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that i do agree with people that are saying about stopping aerobatics with vintage planes at airshows. Lets face it , the Hunter , Gnat , Firefly , p-38 , etc all happened after aerobatics. Saying that , nothing is going to bring back the poor souls that were lost in all of these crashes , but if it saved lives in the future then its worth considering. We have stunt planes for aerobatics

Edited by gunpowder17
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On the Hunter they use 23 degrees of flap for displaying and only retract them for the high speed passes.

That explains the flap. Thanks for clearing that bit up

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm off to Shuttleworth on the 6th

I was at Shoreham on Sat the day was tragic but it will not stop me attending air shows

I'm a armour modeller know nothing about planes but love to see the old ones fly

A guy fell from Sherman tank at a show in the states and was killed

Do we ban tank shows ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that i do agree with people that are saying about stopping aerobatics with vintage planes at airshows. Lets face it , the Hunter , Gnat , Firefly , p-38 , etc all happened after aerobatics. Saying that , nothing is going to bring back the poor souls that were lost in all of these crashes , but if it saved lives in the future then its worth considering. We have stunt planes for aerobatics

There are a lot more plane crashes that have happened that have nothing to do with aerobatics. The light aircraft that crashed at the weekend wasn't doing aerobatics neither was the Spit that crashed at Biggin and the private jet that both crashed the same weekend as the Gnat.

Also the fact there are vintage has nothing to do with there ability to fly manurves or the serviceability of the aircraft, these aircraft are just as highly maintained as any other in the UK and a lot better than in some other countries.

Edited by Tbolt
Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that i do agree with people that are saying about stopping aerobatics with vintage planes at airshows. Lets face it , the Hunter , Gnat , Firefly , p-38 , etc all happened after aerobatics. Saying that , nothing is going to bring back the poor souls that were lost in all of these crashes , but if it saved lives in the future then its worth considering. We have stunt planes for aerobatics

Sorry - I don't understand your comments. What are "people" saying? What do you mean by "happened after aerobatics"? and what is "worth considering"?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It does get frustrating, some one just text in to the BBC news channel saying they should stop flying these vintage aircraft, they are completely clueless about aviation safety and regulations. As for holding all shows over the sea that is just ridiculous - all these people say all this then jump in there car and driver off where they are much more likely to get killed by being hit be another car! But because they drive a car every day and they have never got seriously injured they consider that low risk, even though it's a lot higher.

What of course you need to remember is that when anything happens, everybody suddenly becomes an expert in the subject: "My neighbour's cousin once went out on a blind date with the sister of a trainee RAF radar mechanic, so I know all about flying jets at airshows."

When that Italian captain drove that cruise liner onto the rocks these same people voiced their special knowledge of that subject as well. For those of us who do know a little more about the subject, it is indeed incredibly frustrating. I should think for those who actually do fly airshow routines it is even more so.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm off to Shuttleworth on the 6th

I was at Shoreham on Sat the day was tragic but it will not stop me attending air shows

I'm a armour modeller know nothing about planes but love to see the old ones fly

A guy fell from Sherman tank at a show in the states and was killed

Do we ban tank shows ?

I was there Saturday and yes the crash has effected me but it doesn't stop me going to Dunsfold next weekend or Old Warden on the 6th (though the weather might). Edited by Tbolt
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I was there Saturday and yes the crash had effected me but it doesn't stop me going to Dunsfold next weekend or Old Warden on the 6th (though the weather might).

Totally agree chap I was quiet and withdrawn Sunday but I will attend as many as I can and yes the weather may put the brakes on it

Hope to see the Comet and Blenheim

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Having seen three accidents at the Shoreham airshow now! but not wanting to to speculate into causes! although as someone mentioned earlier i also suspect that the pilot lost power at the top of his loop! but lets let the experts determine if that is correct or not!,

But my major concern is and i have been concerned about this for some time! is the age of some of the pilot`s who are allowed to climb into the cockpits of fast jet`s and perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers! i am not for one minuet calling into question the pilots abilities in this case! as we all know he had a long and distinguished career! but i do call into question weather it`s wise of the of the C`A`A to grant licences to pilots in their senior years to fly fast jet`s!.especially at airshows!.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't consider loops and rolls dangerous manoeuvers. Most of these in vintage aircraft are done at little over 1G. I hate the word 'stunt' flying. Pilots don't pull off stunts, they would have the CAA on their neck. Aerobatic routines are carefully planned and take many things into account. An aircraft describes a path through the air irrespective of it's attitude; it is no more prone to departing controlled flight than if it was straight and level.

In order to obtain certification, every aircraft type has to be proven airworthy and safe to operate. Many vintage types have little of the original airframe left as 'lifed' parts are changed out, the same as airliners. 'People' who say 'stop this', or 'stop that' would have us drive at 4mph behind a red flag again. Who are these 'people', and what are their qualifications? Too many 'people' too ready to jump on bandwagons. As my late Mother used to say..'empty vessels make most noise'.

I'm off to Clacton show on Thursday, unless 'people' manage to get it stopped through ignorance.

Rant over.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

But my major concern is and i have been concerned about this for some time! is the age of some of the pilot`s who are allowed to climb into the cockpits of fast jet`s and perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers! i am not for one minuet calling into question the pilots abilities in this case! as we all know he had a long and distinguished career! but i do call into question weather it`s wise of the of the C`A`A to grant licences to pilots in their senior years to fly fast jet`s!.especially at airshows!.

Is your concern that their age makes them more likely to have acquired the canny skills required to defeat their medical examination? Or is there a problem with the tests?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having seen three accidents at the Shoreham airshow now! but not wanting to to speculate into causes! although as someone mentioned earlier i also suspect that the pilot lost power at the top of his loop! but lets let the experts determine if that is correct or not!,

But my major concern is and i have been concerned about this for some time! is the age of some of the pilot`s who are allowed to climb into the cockpits of fast jet`s and perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers! i am not for one minuet calling into question the pilots abilities in this case! as we all know he had a long and distinguished career! but i do call into question weather it`s wise of the of the C`A`A to grant licences to pilots in their senior years to fly fast jet`s!.especially at airshows!.

As the regulatory body the CAA's requirements for pilots applying for Display Authorisation are incredibly strict. They need to pass a specific medical, be fully conversant with CAP 403 (rules for display flying) and their routine has to be cleared and approved by a CAA inspector before the DA is granted.

Andy Hill is 51, with 12,000 hours of flying experience including fast jets and air displays behind him. As a Harrier pilot in the RAF he would have been rated very highly on his flying abilities, as those who qualified with high marks were usually destined for the Harrier force. The particular requirements of flying the Harrier demanded higher skills than most aircraft.

Edited by T7 Models
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I

Having seen three accidents at the Shoreham airshow now! but not wanting to to speculate into causes! although as someone mentioned earlier i also suspect that the pilot lost power at the top of his loop! but lets let the experts determine if that is correct or not!,

But my major concern is and i have been concerned about this for some time! is the age of some of the pilot`s who are allowed to climb into the cockpits of fast jet`s and perform extreme aerobatic maneuvers! i am not for one minuet calling into question the pilots abilities in this case! as we all know he had a long and distinguished career! but i do call into question weather it`s wise of the of the C`A`A to grant licences to pilots in their senior years to fly fast jet`s!.especially at airshows!.

Is your ! button stuck? As to the age of the pilot, if he passes his yearly medical I think I'd prefer to be at an airshow with a multi thousand hour airline & former fast jet pilot at the controls of a classic jet than some young hooray Henry who's failed his RAF selection tests, but daddy had enough money to buy him a PPL, then a JP & then maybe a Hunter, or L39 or whatever. I'm just generalising there, but you can buy your way into fast jet flying, and with age comes experience - & a lot less cockiness.

I don't think it'll be long before the media start baying for air shows to be banned. What we need to remind them if we're at all interested in seeing air shows continue, is that the weekend's tragedy did in fact take place outside the airfield boundary. Thus, despite the jet taking part in the airshow it was just horrendously unlucky it came down where it did. Now there are possibly only three realistic causes for the crash. Pilot error, incapacitation, or mechanical failure. These can happen to any aircraft, at any time, at any place. Therefore if you ban airshows you need to close any main road under the flightpath to an airport. Or close any airport that has an approach or departure route over dense areas of population. That would be most of them then. Remember the BA 777 that landed short at Heathrow with the fuel problem - imagine if that had been a few miles earlier...

And finally, the media will love to sensationalise this accident because of the horrifically tragic death toll. But they'll all too easily forget the motorway crashes that killed 12 children & their teacher in 1993, or the 7 killed on the M5 in 2011, or the two earlier crashes in which 13 people were killed in each case....etc etc.

This weekends event was truly. truly horrific, but the media will no doubt lose all perspective in order to sensationalise their stories - something which in all honesty they don't need to do...

Keith

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that i do agree with people that are saying about stopping aerobatics with vintage planes at airshows. Lets face it , the Hunter , Gnat , Firefly , p-38 , etc all happened after aerobatics. Saying that , nothing is going to bring back the poor souls that were lost in all of these crashes , but if it saved lives in the future then its worth considering. We have stunt planes for aerobatics

The aerobatics they perform are not dangerous. Planes can fail in straight flight. Just the same as they can on the ground during take off and landing. The pilots and CAA know more about it than you or eye or emotional knee jerk reactions from the media and public who don't know what they are talking about.

Sadly stuff like this happens. The same as people fall over , spill drinks and do things they regret. You cannot stop reality.

It's sad but what can you do

Edited by robvulcan
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry - I don't understand your comments. What are "people" saying? What do you mean by "happened after aerobatics"? and what is "worth considering"?

"People" as in some comments i have read on other forums , both pilots and non pilots , "happened after" A as in the p-38 crashing after a roll , the firefly after a loop etc and " worth considering" as in maybe not doing, Only my personal opinion on things.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Simply awful business. I was at Mildenhall in 1983 & saw the T28 crash. That the pilot survived here seems a miracle given the Pictures & videos that are circulating but it appears that perhaps the Hunter "pancaked" in at the bottom of the dive & I seem to recall that on the Hunter there is a "transport joint" just aft of the cockpit so perhaps the front of the fuslage separated from the main part, thereby removing the pilot from the worst of the impact & subsequent fireball?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...