bzn20 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 T7 a bit over the top with accusations of reality checks etc. Try and temper it. It has been a good thread on a very sad subject so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Given that Shoreham is embedded in built-up areas to the east and west I can entirely understand why a high speed large formation team would find it a location onto which it could not feel happy overlaying one of its big set-piece displays. Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. The Roulette team here in Australia manage to put on fantastic displays at the F1 in Melbourne, the Indy Cars and V8 supercars at the Gold Coast as well as Riverfire in Brisbane. These are all areas with Millions of people in a much more densely populated area than what I've seen on TV where the crash happened. The Hornet display at the F1 in Melbourne has to be one of the most impressive displays I've ever seen with incredibly tight turns, loops, inverted flight and climbs so close to the public at times you can see the pilot. The Super Hornets at Riverfire in Brisbane are also a great spectacle as was the F111 dump and burn before they were retired. It is a shame the UK, which has such a wonderful aviation history, is about to screwed over by the nanny state whipped up into a frothing frenzy by the disgraceful so called media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Yes, also the Taylor report recommended all seater stadiums and they did try to introduce identity cards for football fans after Hysel. Football changed beyond recognition after these tragedies, Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, I was personally involved in some very near misses at football in the 80's.Spot on. I was at Hillsborough (in the Forest end, thank the Lord). I was also at the FA Cup semi final the year before - same ground, same two teams - when something very similar very nearly happened. Like Simon, when I think back to some of the near-misses at matches I went to in the 70s & 80s, I now shudder. The CAA have done the right thing, and it's pretty much standard procedure. Several times during my career my aircraft was grounded for a few days after an accident or incident elsewhere, until the investigators had established the probable cause. The Gib Flight Lynx horizontal stabiliser fell off in flight in 1990, for instance; no-one hurt, but all Lynx flying suspended for a few days (and only resumed once some very specific inspections of the spar had been completed). Similarly, the awful Mombasa Lynx crash in 1989, when they opened the main door in flight to let some air in for passengers in the back (perfectly normal procedure at the time) only for the door to come off and take out one main blade and the tail rotor; all killed, and permanent changes made to SOPs once the cause was fully understood. Until the authorities understand what caused the T7 crash (I mean genuinely understand it, rather than assuming "stunt flying" or the aircraft's age must have caused it), it is only sensible to take a prudent pause. It is also sensitive to the families of those who died. After the Mombasa crash, the 3 RN Lynx squadrons set up a 3-mile exclusion zone around the village where the pilot's widow lived; we didn't want her to have to hear the distinctive Lynx tail rotor buzz many times per day (she lived on a standard route between Portland & Merryfield) when things were so fresh. A few weeks later she came into the Squadron and thanked us, saying it had really helped at a very difficult time. If a few weeks of curtailed flying displays has the same effect, then great. Then some proper lessons can be learned - by which time the press will have long since moved on. Edited August 25, 2015 by Ex-FAAWAFU 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 We didn't expect much else from the authorities did we? A 'plane came down on a busy road and hit several cars,cyclists,Bikers,pedestrians/small crowd. What are they supposed to do? Its not happened before so carry on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 T7 a bit over the top with accusations of reality checks etc. Try and temper it. It has been a good thread on a very sad subject so far. I did say I was trying not to make it personal, and I apologise if it came over as such. But I do believe that the airshow industry is going to be decimated by whatever reports and recommendations will be coming out over the coming weeks, months and even years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I think the CAA statement is perfectly fair and reasonable at this stage. The CAA are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place at the moment - I think we should cut them some slack whilst everything investigated fully. If they hadn't taken this stance I fear calls to ban altogether would have grown and grown - so I think they've probably taken the best route they could at this difficult time. And, just to add, most people I've met that work at the CAA are also enthusiasts just like the rest of us - but they do have a job to do. Iain 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I've no issues with grounding the type pending investigation at all. My aircraft type has been grounded in the past temporarily and I'm happy they did so I can be confident I'll return home to my other half after a duty of flying. What I do disagree with are the possible repercussions to air shows, already highly restricted and regulated, that could mean the upcoming generations missing out on the thrill of watching aircraft perform that we have taken for granted. Plenty of shows, motorsports, football etc have led to innocent people dying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Every disaster is different and fully investigated to cover every little detail. The cliche "leasons will be learned" is true and new regulations,ammedments to manuals safety bullitins etc. to make sure, as much as possible, it isn't repeated. The Aviation industry is second to none with safety. Safety is paramount,safety is the corner stone of the aviation industry. It was the first thing we learned in training and the first item on every phase of our training was safety. Nobody moans about new regs because there is a very good reason they are issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this It is a shame the UK, which has such a wonderful aviation history, is about to screwed over by the nanny state whipped up into a frothing frenzy by the disgraceful so called media. Well, you and they are free to do whatever you like within the scope of whatever your local regs say. Personally I would decline to perform an display which would require me to fly at low level over housing in a single-engined aeroplane, and I would under no circumstances talk down any other display pilot who shared that opinion. I've never flown any single-engined aeroplane into a position where I could not glide to a non built up area in the case of an engine failure, even when taking off and landing from licensed airfields (which gives one an exemption from the glide-clear section of the low flying provisions of the UK Air Navigation Order, but just because something is legal doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea). If you find that position to be frothing, nanny-statish or screwing people over I'll have to agree to differ with you. Edited August 25, 2015 by Work In Progress 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 One other point on the participation of the Red Arrows at Shoreham is that the London TMA starts at 5500 feet above Shoreham, indeed just north of the field it drops to 4500 feet. When you add in nearby high ground the built up areas and the relative proximity to Gatwick. It's no wonder they cannot display there. But none of this is particularly relevant to individual display aircraft. It's just a pity they don't make this clear instead of allowing the media to think it's dangerous for all aircraft. But the low level of the TMA may very well have been a factor in the performance of the loop. Again I'm sure this will form part of the investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Work in progress Well said. Like the last line too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Work in Progress Re read my post. You are putting together two different things I've discussed. The first is regarding your insistence that a large display team cannot safely perform over built up areas. The second is a reference to possible changes being made that leads to the death of aviation shows in the UK. How about taming the aggression down a bit eh? Personally I would decline to perform an display which would require me to fly at low level over housing in a single-engined aeroplane, and I would under no circumstances talk down any other display pilot who shared that opinion. You wouldn't be talking to any of the Australian Air Force Roulette team then as they fly a single engine Pilatus PC-9 over the city during their displays. Edited August 25, 2015 by Homerlovesbeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycap Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The Gaurdian is even refferring to the loop as' a lunatic manouvre ' Also IIRC from the news interviw last night , the ban on display manouvers for jets is temporary, not permenant The Gaurdian is even refferring to the loop as' a lunatic manouvre ' Also IIRC from the news interviw last night , the ban on display manouvers for jets is temporary, not permenant on the news this morning the caa topdog [politico] said that for the forseable future all of these display are banned , unless we get an aviation minded government the end of airshows and related industry in the uk is now almost certain. shame on all the media. greycap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Work in Progress Re read my post. You are putting together two different things I've discussed. The first is regarding your insistence that a large display team cannot safely perform over built up areas. The second is a reference to possible changes being made that leads to the death of aviation shows in the UK. How about taming the aggression down a bit eh? You wouldn't be talking to any of the Australian Air Force Roulette team then as they fly a single engine Pilatus PC-9 over the city during their displays. I understood you to be disagreeing with this, so correct me if I have misunderstood you: "Given that Shoreham is embedded in built-up areas to the east and west I can entirely understand why a high speed large formation team would find it a location onto which it could not feel happy overlaying one of its big set-piece displays." The view attributed to the Red Arrows, about whom I was talking there, is that their set-piece displays, if enacted at Shoreham, would expose homes underneath parts of the display to overflight at low level which would present an unacceptable risk in the event of an engine failure. If you're happy to fly singles over built up areas where you can't land clear in the event of an engine failure then of course that will enable you to do shows in places that other people prefer not to do. Edited August 25, 2015 by Work In Progress 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Work in progress Well said. Like the last line too. If you like things taken out of context......WIP, stop referring to ME wanting to FLY in built up areas etc. I'm referring to Air Forces Around the world that do so regularly and safely. I get it, you don't believe it's safe, it's something you wouldn't do. Fine. Don't criticise those who do, or those, like myself, who enjoy watching those displays. Two engines don't make you immune either. Edited August 25, 2015 by Homerlovesbeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain my context error and clarify your position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 No I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you on this. People have died, it's a terrible thing and my heart goes out to all those affected. May they rest in peace and may God console those who have lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Norman Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I did say I was trying not to make it personal, and I apologise if it came over as such. But I do believe that the airshow industry is going to be decimated by whatever reports and recommendations will be coming out over the coming weeks, months and even years. T7, Spot on mate, Said that myself on the day, Possibly this is the End of Shoreham which was an Excellent close in show with plenty of Action, It also highlighted the lack of access to the show Arena with myself being stuck there until 2000hrs and only 2 exits. UK shows are already very Sanitised already for the viewer, Take RIAT for instance, Flying is way too far out and too high. Touch and goes don't happen any more, even overshoots have to happen way before the runway threshold, Air to Air refueling demos, When was the last time you saw that in the UK?. The UK shows have been dying a death of the last few years. Thankfully I am lucky I returned back home safely with the wife and kids, Many others did not and my thoughts are with those people and the Emergency services that had to deal with the disaster. I have attended airshows since 1971 and have seen some great stuff over the years, Personally I wont be going to a show to see just a flypast of a Vintage Jet but I hope sense prevails and the show continues and the Jets get back to doing what the do best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 With regard to flying single engined aircraft over residential areas etc, it is worth noting that the Red Arrows perform at Farnborough. which is a built up area, and regularly carry out flypasts over London. Indeed, along with the BBMF they are among the very few single engined aircraft permitted to overfly central London. I suspect the team's reluctance to display at Shoreham has more to do with the big hill that some of the footage of the crash was taken from, and which seems to lie directly in their display area, rather than whether or not the area surrounding the airfield is built up. Other countries have their own regulations and happily operate within the parameters set by those regulations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) This is where the Roulettes fly over the Melbourne F1. I hope some of you can understand why I think Shoreham seems to be far less populated an area than Melbourne, yet we have Hornets and Roulettes doing displays over this area but Shoreham is too populated for your Red Arrows aerobatics team. In Australia we really don't have many airshows, (only major one is Avalon) so we tend to get more public displays like this at major events. Perhaps we have been lucky over here? I don;t know, all I know is I was at the F1, I saw the displays and they were amazing. I hope my kids can enjoy these displays one day and I do hope common sense prevails in the UK over the Shoreham crash. The UK families shouldn't be denied the enjoyment of such a wonderful spectacle. And the Hornet display Finally the Roulettes And F-111 dump and burn and gold coast beach fly by Edited August 25, 2015 by Homerlovesbeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaw Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I was at the show and saw that beautiful Hunter crash - a horrible sight which I would not want to see again. My sympathies go out to all of those affected by the crash. However don't you just love these so called 'experts' that the media roll out whenever there is such an incident. Two spring to mind - one who said that the Hunter took off from Shoreham - as far as I am aware it did not - it flew in from Bournemouth (?). And the good old Daily Mail got it all wrong as usual with its graphic saying that the plane flew in from the north. It did not - it came in over the sea flying north. And the coast is due south of the airfield - at least it was the last time I looked. That was also repeated by the BBC - they should know better. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Indeed - I believe it took off from North Weald. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 This is where the Roulettes fly over the Melbourne F1. I hope some of you can understand why I think Shoreham seems to be far less populated an area than Melbourne, yet we have Hornets and Roulettes doing displays over this area but Shoreham is too populated for your Red Arrows aerobatics team. Albert Park is 2 or 3 times the area of Shoreham and has a big lake in the middle. In terms of display flying over an airfield it's a complete red herring to compare the two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerlovesbeer Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Albert Park is 2 or 3 times the area of Shoreham and has a big lake in the middle. In terms of display flying over an airfield it's a complete red herring to compare the two. It's 1.5km long and about 75m wide with a slight curve.......you've got to be good if your going to ditch in that What about the Gold Coast? Plenty of high rise buildings to smack into there....... Edited August 25, 2015 by Homerlovesbeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xffw45343tg Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) It does seem to be drifting off the point though to be discussing where other display teams in other jurisdictions are able/prepared to fly. Even to a 'barely-above-layman' like me it seems obvious that the space requirements for a multi-aircraft display would be significantly larger than those required for a single displaying aircraft of the same type. I'm just not sure where you are going with this HLB... Shoreham's layout and orientation is such that it takes advantage of a gap in the ridge of the South Downs where the Adur river comes though - the elevated section of the A27 crosses the river. To the north of the A27 is very sparsely populated land in the river's flood plain. From memory there is a now disused cement works(?) and a row of terraced houses served by the single carriage road up to Steyning etc. There are no buildings that I recall on the hill to the east of the valley but the striking Lancing college is on the westerly hill. The airfield is located in a patch of flat land (presumably river flood plain) to the south west of the gap in the Downs and to the north of the coast road, beyond (to the south) of which are the quite a few houses of Shoreham Beach. This layout means that people at the airfield (other than those in the tower I guess) don't have a view of the beach - making an "over the sea" display very limited in its appeal. It also means that those not wishing to enter the airfield can view much of the display from the sides of the A27 and up on the Downs. Anyone wishing to bang on about a highly populated area should take a look at the area on their favourite online map. The truth would seem to be that it is appalling circumstance that brought the Hunter into such close proximity with so many innocent bystanders. I would argue that if "old" aircraft passing above roads is wrong then we may have to close Gatwick, Heathrow etc etc. Edit: Completely forgot about the (narrow) Botolph's road on the West side of the river. There are a small number of buildings along that... Edited August 25, 2015 by Kirk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts