dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think this was the Hunter we saw at the Duxford Spring Air Show 2013, can anyone else confirm that? thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAS Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Please can I say how strongly I object to the use of the picture showing the flames and cars at the actual crash site on the A27. I was at the airshow very close to the crash site and saw it all happen. That pictures shows the death throes of 7 individuals that’s not something to be “gawked” at or speculated over. Sorry that’s just how I feel and I suspect many locals share my reservations (Yes I know it’s all over the news and I hope the sod that sold it to them burns in hell!!) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Please can I say how strongly I object to the use of the picture showing the flames and cars at the actual crash site on the A27. I was at the airshow very close to the crash site and saw it all happen. That pictures shows the death throes of 7 individuals that’s not something to be “gawked” at or speculated over. Sorry that’s just how I feel and I suspect many locals share my reservations (Yes I know it’s all over the news and I hope the sod that sold it to them burns in hell!!) How about we keep personal attacks out of this thread? Edited August 23, 2015 by Tbolt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Please can I say how strongly I object to the use of the picture showing the flames and cars at the actual crash site on the A27. I was at the airshow very close to the crash site and saw it all happen. That pictures shows the death throes of 7 individuals that’s not something to be “gawked” at or speculated over. Sorry that’s just how I feel and I suspect many locals share my reservations (Yes I know it’s all over the news and I hope the sod that sold it to them burns in hell!!) This is on the BBC site: Police have also urged people to think twice before posting "extremely graphic" images of the crash and its aftermath online. Having seen 3 accidents with one of them fatal I can in some way feel for the people who witnessed it but just as importantly think of the poor souls who are no longer with us and their families Edited August 23, 2015 by Toe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomastmcc Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Yeah, the missus and I are still very shaken up. I don't think we will forget yesterday for a long time. am not surprised rick a scary experience ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnerboy Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 oh no. BBC says death toll is now 11 those poor people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) No, I am not even trying to make light of the accident. I just hope (possibly in vain?) that a sense of perspective prevails. the slight 'problem' here I guess is that few- if any- of the victims were actually at the airshow itself -unlike Farnborough or the other 'events' you cite. Airshow/motor sport attendees etc are aware things can go wrong and there is some risk. I was close to the impact point at Fairford when the two MiGs collided and although we pretty quickly saw the chutes we had no idea what might have happened on the ground - I've never seen so many people in tears. I think its already been said but fast jets at a small field near a main road will possibly be 'reviewed' after this. Terrible tragedy...thoughts are with all affected by this Edited August 23, 2015 by FalkeEins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reini78 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Do we have any more news on the pilot yet? I can't seem to find any articles online that he's passed away, but someone has commented as such above. If true, a horrible incident just became that little bit worse. I stated it, was a missinformation in our Austrian news, today they corrected it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardie Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I see that there has been a mid-air collision at a Swiss airshow today. One pilot escaped but sounds like the other wasn't so lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Over the years, I've been present at various air shows where crashes - some fatal - have occured, and have witnessed a few, the first being the S-67 at Farnborough in 1974. It's a sad fact that accidents can and do happen at air shows, and other events with an air display element - such as the car show only a few short weeks ago where the Gnat crashed..... In that case, and others in the past (the Red Arrows Hawk at Bournemouth springs to mind), the crash happened away from the actual site, in 'open' country, with no fatalities/injuries on the ground, but sadly with the loss of the pilots - in this instance, it was an against-the-odds scenario with the impact point being a busy road junction, resulting in such a terrible loss of life amongst people (now reported as 11) who were simply in 'the wrong place, at the wrong time'.... Unfortunately, I can forsee a direct consequence of this latest tragedy being that owners/operators of aircraft who wish to perform air displays, and organisers of air shows (and other events) will either be unable to obtain or unable to afford the public liability insurance required. I know some events (not just air shows) have previously fallen victim to prohibitive insurance costs - the aftermath of this sad incident will quite possibly result in more of the same.... Edited August 23, 2015 by andyf117 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsprop Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 This is just awful 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Please can I say how strongly I object to the use of the picture showing the flames and cars at the actual crash site on the A27. I was at the airshow very close to the crash site and saw it all happen. That pictures shows the death throes of 7 individuals that’s not something to be “gawked” at or speculated over. Sorry that’s just how I feel and I suspect many locals share my reservations (Yes I know it’s all over the news and I hope the sod that sold it to them burns in hell!!) I am sorry you have been traumatised by being close to the crash. It is horrible, but how is seeing the film different from any film showing fatal things happen? E.g gun camera footage that military aviation enthusiasts seem to "like"; viewing footage of the explosion and sinking of HMS Barham (the death throes of many many hundreds) etc etc. People will speculate, it is human nature and our ability to do it sets us apart in the animal kingdom. Van Edited August 23, 2015 by Van 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathasatail Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I am sorry you have been traumatised by being close to the crash. It is horrible, but how is seeing the film different from any film showing fatal things happen? E.g gun camera footage that military aviation enthusiasts seem to "like"; viewing footage of the explosion and sinking of HMS Barham (the death throes of many many hundreds) etc etc. People will speculate, it is human nature and our ability to do it sets us apart in the animal kingdom. Van I guess because the event happened recently and so close to "home" because so many people witnessed it and were deeply shocked by the crash. Regarding HMS Barham-indeed that was a terrible tragedy but you must remember that that was some 70 years ago and is not fresh in peoples mind, also there were not too many civillian witnesses to the sinking I would have thought-it was an act of war, you don't expect a tragedy like the one yesterday to occur in peacetime. Also worth noting the censorship by the government in 1941. Nevertheless that is one for psychology researchers to uncover-it is quite an interesting point how time affects the public's opinion of fatal incidents. Anyway, that's my opinion on it, Sam Edited August 23, 2015 by cathasatail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardtarget Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I was there yesterday and i saw the whole thing, every manoeuvre of every ac display. I have my theories of what happened after seeing first hand his entrance and manoeuvres up to that unfortunate event. I would ask the pilot, what degree of flaps did he have, what speed he approached the beginning of the loop and at what height. With the Mk1 eyeball it looked too slow and too low to attempt the loop and he seemed to stay inverted too long on the exit. If there was a mech failure i.e. loss of power why did he simply not roll out at the top as he had enough energy for that? I know in hunters they have flaps down to increase tighter turns but if these are deployed you need to increase the power settings of which imo there simply wasn't enough (no coal coming out in the climb). I also wonder if he had set the altimeter correctly as give it another 200 ft he would have made it. If he came from North weald or Bournemouth that's a different setting to Brighton AP. If the pilot has made an error and he has survived no one will need to tell him what's happened and the consequences he has to face, as he will know and is the only one who knew what was going on in his head and cockpit. Unfortunately he will have to live with this along with all the grieving families who I feel for. Anyhow, the AAIB will find this out and ill read the report.I personally don't think he will fly display again for one or more reasons. I truly hope he pulls through; which at the angle of impact to the ground it was probable the best he could hope for to potentially survive. I feel frustrated, annoyed and very sad as this could have been avoided and so nearly was but a couple of hundred feet. Its normally down to the simple things or pushing the envelope that's the cause of AC crashes so the families of the deceased will get answers. Such an unfortunate accident. Edited August 23, 2015 by Hardtarget 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I erased that horrible photo (that came from the telegraph article) from my post, it wasn't my intention to hurt anyone. My apology 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) A superb piece of writing. Just a shame that the media is not taking the same line: After yesterday’s tragic accident at the Shoreham Royal Air Force Association Airshow in Sussex, UK, with seven people known to have been killed, 14 injured, and the pilot in hospital in a critical condition, there has been a great deal of understandable shock and speculation. Unfortunately much of the commentary and speculation has no context, and for that reason, here is a number of facts to provide some background to otherwise overlooked critical aspects of this disaster. No one yet knows what caused the accident. What is known is the aircraft, a Hawker Hunter T7 (a trainer version of a 1950s British fighter design) hit the ground, broke up, and the fuel aboard exploded. Unfortunately the impact took place on the A27 road which had traffic on it at the time, and the casualties were people just travelling on this road. The pilot survived the accident, but is badly injured and in hospital at the time of writing. At the risk of stating the obvious, no-one wants or is prepared to have airshow accidents: not as a by-product of display activities or any other reason. Like all sport, there are dangers, but there is a great deal done to minimise and mitigate those risks, as outlined below. Airshow Safety The deaths yesterday are the first fatalities to bystander members of the public at a British airshow since an accident 1952. That is 63 years ago. It is no coincidence, either as the reason for this remarkable achievement is measures put in place after the 1952 John Derry DH.110 accident. (Car racing accidents involving deaths of members of the public at Le Mans in 1955 and during the Italian Grand Prix at Monza in 1961 resulted in safety measures that have effectively ensured almost no injuries to the public since. There have been more recent spectator deaths in rally driving, while participant injuries in air displays, horse riding, motorsport, skiing and other similar activities remain low, but apparently ever present, despite continual growth of safety measures – such as helmets in horse riding and skiing. Any assessment needs to look at global trends and events and the local nation by nation or code [such as international sport safety rules] to gather meaningful data. In the case of air displays, there are variations in approach and regulation nations, and accident history, so for this discussion I have focussed on UK rules and history alone.) One of the main principles formulated after the 1952 airshow accident is to ensure that the display aircraft mostly do not overfly the crowd or direct the energy of the manoeuvring towards the crowd. There are some exceptions, but by having this as a standard basis, any accidents that may occur will not involve those watching the show from the official public enclosure. In the case of the Shoreham accident, one point generally not made is that the accident did avoid the crowd area (as is in the standard plan) though it tragically did involve a road with people on it. While each death is a tragedy, we are lucky that there were so few, which is the result of a mixture of luck (the area around airfields is a mixture of open land and occupied areas) and planning (as above). What went wrong? We do not know. However, we will know and I can state, categorically, that a) the accident’s causes will almost certainly be accurately identified, by professional accident investigators, and the report will be publicly published and available for free on the internet. Unfortunately, it will not be available in the current news-media cycle, as it will take a number of months to be processed and completed. This is because Britain has the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB). The AAIB will painstakingly piece together the sequence of events, forensically examine the factors, aircraft, pilot, environment and so forth, and enumerate the data and conclusions in the report. If they cannot identify causes, they will say so, but despite the destructive nature of aviation accidents, they rarely have to leave any factors listed as ‘unknown’. That is why the airshow organisers ask for any evidence to be handed in. In about six months from now, the publication of the report will make a few hours news, but will be available on the AAIB website from then onwards, for anyone to read and learn from. Any lessons that might change current practice in flight and show safety will be explicitly stated, and the recommendations implemented where appropriate. Significant risks identified will be acted on. Pilot Checks The pilot of any UK air display aircraft have to work out a standard display routine, normally made up of a number of standard aerobatic manoeuvres linked together to form the presentation. This is overseen by a designated examiner and when he or she is satisfied that the display is viable, repeatable, and safe, the pilot is issued with a Display Authorisation, or ‘DA’. This means that every display act has a standard, repeated and much-practiced routine that he (or she or the crew) go through. They do not add to or change the display once it has been validated, and no one ‘brings an aircraft and goes for a fly’ at a UK airshow. This, obviously doesn’t prevent all accidents, but it does minimise the risks and removes multiple causal problems. Display pilots are a remarkably varied group of people, however (in the UK) they are all in possession of the appropriate licences (like a car driver’s licence) and endorsements (like a heavy goods vehicle licence, or forklift licence) for any extras or differences from the standard aircraft that they expect to fly. For this, they have to be fit and healthy (as far as annual medicals can ensure) and fully experienced in flying the aircraft they are displaying. In many cases the pilots have thousands of hours flying experience, and have to have significant experience practicing (and in due course performing) their display routine. (Note: the above is specific to civil pilots. Military pilots work on a different, but similarly regimented safety system.) Aircraft Age The Hawker Hunter is a 1950s design. The crashed aircraft was built some time later, but in that era. However, any vintage air display aircraft has to be kept in excellent condition, not just in looks but in mechanical reliability. In the case of a 1950s era jet fighter-trainer, the structure, engine, systems (like a car’s brakes and electrics) are all well known, inspected and tested in depth on a regular cycle (usually annually, and sections more frequently) and also tested as part of the pre-flight checks before every flight. Any parts that don’t work are replaced or, within a very stringent set of criteria, repaired. Most vintage display aircraft are in better condition mechanically than your five-year-old car, and are certainly inspected and tested to a far higher standard. There is a balance between the pros and cons of still using older technology. On the negative side, older systems and aircraft are not as refined for use as more modern types. This is mitigated by the fact that, specifically in the case of 1950s military jets, they are not being used at the speeds, heights or performance that they were originally designed to be. Again, they are high performance technology, but being used in a very restricted format, rather like showing a race car, on a private course, at suburban speed limits. On the positive side of the use of old technology, the strengths and weaknesses of the design and components are well known. Any ‘product recall’ issues with the type are known (from decades earlier) documented and have the solutions in place. If they have not been solved, the aircraft does not fly. Disaster Management Another point rarely noted about yesterday’s accident is that the airshow team had a co-ordinated disaster management plan in place, working with the involvement of the airshow team and emergency services. In this case it clearly worked (though not all details are in) and they all deserve credit for a plan that was fully worked out and able to be implemented when it had to be. Why Fly? Obviously if there are no airshows, there can be no airshow accidents. There have been national bans in other countries. However, despite the evidence of yesterday’s tragedy, overall airshows are safe entertainment and provide significant tourism revenue, education and employment. Despite some reports, it is not common for operators of ex-military jet aircraft to cover their costs from appearance fees, though there is, of course, enormous variation in the costs of operation and the income possible. (The Shoreham airshow is a charity fundraiser for the Royal Air Force Association.) In the UK, and most other countries they are tightly regulated, carefully managed and safe. Everyone works towards a ‘safety is no accident’ objective. Statistics vary, but airshows routinely gather huge audiences on site – far greater in numbers than many live sports, and are sometimes cited as the second most popular spectator sport in the UK. The infrastructure of vintage aviation, airshow activities, right down to the vital toilets, rubbish management and coffee carts, involves a huge number of people and generates remarkable amounts of tourism-type revenue. Additionally, they are more appreciated than ever as a cornerstone of the current ‘living history’ approach to history and heritage entertainment and education. These are some of the background measures that were in place, and I hope you find the information useful. James Kightly, www.VintageAeroWriter.com James is a professional writer and reporter on global vintage aviation, and has been writing for over a quarter-century. Well done that man. Edited August 23, 2015 by Mike Adding a quote bubble so it's known to be a quote of someone else's work at outset 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roys Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Interesting harking back to the 1952 John Derry crash. My father cycled to the show the day after, in pouring rain ,but the show continued in a subdued manner. I have seen the horrible footage of spectators carrying dead women out, unpleasant footage is nothing new I also met the last person to be killed at Shoreham, Brian Brown, when I visited Breighton to view Alex Henshaws Mew Gull. They let me climb up the Hurricane wing to view the cockpit & I presume it was the one destroyed in the crash ? Similar crash I believe? Viewing the latest stuff on tonights news they seem to suggest a wing drop. From flying R/C gliders I know that things change close to the ground so it will be interesting to see what the final verdict on the cause is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighter Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I'm confused . . . According to Anglia News the aircraft involved was a "Hurricane Hawker " ! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 My Dad and Uncle where at Farnborogh that year. They where kids back then and the engine went just over their heads killing many behind them. The flying continued back then which my Dad says was a good thing as it helped distract from the terror and also was a tribute to Derry. It was different times back then though. But accidents still happen no matter what you do and the age of the plane dont matter back then it was a new prototype today an older plane but sadly these things happen. My Dad decided from that show to be someone who wanted to help people and ended up having a career in the police and other jobs that were focused on people. That in turn has rubbed off on me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevemk1 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Hope you don't mind me posting to this thread. I don't have anything that I can add other than that I was at the airshow watching from the terminal cafe. My thoughts are with all of those affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I'm confused . . . According to Anglia News the aircraft involved was a "Hurricane Hawker " ! ! Anglia News? Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Interesting harking back to the 1952 John Derry crash. My father cycled to the show the day after, in pouring rain ,but the show continued in a subdued manner. I have seen the horrible footage of spectators carrying dead women out, unpleasant footage is nothing new I also met the last person to be killed at Shoreham, Brian Brown, when I visited Breighton to view Alex Henshaws Mew Gull. They let me climb up the Hurricane wing to view the cockpit & I presume it was the one destroyed in the crash ? Similar crash I believe? Viewing the latest stuff on tonights news they seem to suggest a wing drop. From flying R/C gliders I know that things change close to the ground so it will be interesting to see what the final verdict on the cause is. My dad was there,minutes before he was on the top of a Double Decker bus used as a cafe,which was pretty close to some of the debris. A woman was trying to pull one of the engines of the body of her school boy son, The engine was still "red hot". Dad told me the details,which I'm not repeating.You can only imagine. Edited August 23, 2015 by bzn20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Let's keep speculation, finger pointing etc. away from the thread please folks, as it does no good, and only leads to rows. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear13583 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 A superb piece of writing. Just a shame that the media is not taking the same line: James is a professional writer and reporter on global vintage aviation, and has been writing for over a quarter-century. Well done that man. tWith all the 24/7 media coverage and their 'experts' and bystanders twitter coments standing in for the facts, how refreshing to see some sensible reaction to this tragic accident. Well done and thankyou for posting this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger331 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I'm quite amazed by the number of co-respondents that had relatives that witnessed or were involved with the last accident at Farnborough. My father, an RAF Apprentice at the time, was 'on duty' that day as a steward and witnessed the whole incident from close by and was then immediately drafted in to help with the aftermath. Understandably, he kept most of the details to himself over the years but did confirm that it was truly horrific and it was an experience that remained with him until his passing late last year. Quite obviously my immediate sympathies go out to those who have been hardest hit with the loss of relatives and loved ones but I also spare a thought for those that witnessed that terrible and tragic event yesterday afternoon. tWith all the 24/7 media coverage and their 'experts' and bystanders twitter coments standing in for the facts, how refreshing to see some sensible reaction to this tragic accident. Well done and thankyou for posting this. Wholeheartedly agree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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