Belgian wartime Stampe et Vertongen SV.4 photos wanted

[MarkoZG]

Hi all.

Now that we have new Frrom-Azur kits available and upon seeing the marking options provided, I am slightly disappointed that there is no Belgian WW2 option. I know that this plane saw its heyday after WW2 but first examples entered Belgian Air Force before country's occupation. So, my questions would be:

Is there a photo of Belgian AF SV.4 from pre-1940 period?

Which versions were introduced prior to occupation and is there a photo coverage for each of them?

Thanks in advance!

Edited July 16, 2015 by MarkoZG

[Homebee]

http://www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/interbellum/sv4b_prewar.htm

V.P.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Homebee

[MarkoZG]

Wow, this was fast!

Thank you sooo much!

Was the SV.4B the only pre-war delivered version or were there any other versions? As far as I understood letters denominating versions didn't neccessariliy had to mean the sequence.

[Homebee]

http://users.pandora.be/sv-4b/Engels/introduc.htm

V.P.

[MarkoZG]

Remarkable! Many thanks!

[Gilles_53]

Pre-war S.V.4b delivered to Belgian Air Force had:

- two windshields (closed canopy introduced after WWII), windshields are provided in the four kits

- somewhat semi-circular 'protections' under the lower wing (should not be too difficult to scratch build - these parts appear in photographs and drawings)

- AND a different engine from post war version (Belgian post war version was fitted with a DH Gipsy MAJOR X).

All four Azur-Frrom boxes give the Gipsy Major X with corresponding propeller (and oil tank), whether this is close enough to give the pre-war version, this is not totally clear. But, on box FR0026 Stampe S.V.4b United Kingdom, the building notice indicates how to slightly modify the engine to go for the OO-ATD, borrowed by Donnet and Divoy. As the OO-ATD was the prototype backup, we may assume the 30 planes delivered to Belgian Air Force at beginning of WWII were in the same configuration (unless proven differently). So, you might have to grind off the 'lip' on the engine cowling. Propeller should be part D31.

The few S.V.4 built BEFORE the prototype OO-ATC and prototype back-up OO-ATD might be an other story, if memory serves they were built with different wing configuration (and maybe not on the same scheme).

Production history :

- S.V.4, 4 ? built before 1939

- OO-ATC and OO-ATD, prototypes for S.V.4b production (b for Bis), spring 1939

- 30 S.V.4b built for Belgian Air Force, Sept 39 to May 1940, all delivered (seem they were sent to Belgian Congo after collapse of France)

- 10 or so S.V.4 built for French Air Force, all lost during battle of France (captured by Germans, destroyed... )

- 1948 to 1955 : 65 S.V.4b built after WWII for Belgian Air Force (modified from pre-war version, closed canopy, Gipsy Major X, no more protections under tip of lower wing)

- after WWII, 701 planes built under licence in Sartrouville, fitted with Renault engine (S.V.4c, c coming logically after b version)

- after WWII, an additionnal batch of 150 french S.V.4c was built in Algiers

- and some french planes (50 ?) were fitted with a slightly different engine, allowing sustainable inverted flight, showing a small bump on top of engine (both sides), this was the S.V.4a version ('a' logically given for for Acrobatie, Aerobatics)

So - the a version is the last one of the three main versions (order then is : b, c, a).

Réginald Jouhaud wrote two books in which very valuable information is found (but... in french) :

- Les avions Stampe (not only on S.V.4 but on the whole Stampe projects and production)

- Stampe S.V.4, a Ouest-France booklet on the S.V.4, giving the history, profiles, etc., very useful to built the kits, gives quite a lot of schemes, including a pre-war Belgian AF S.V.4b

Edited July 17, 2015 by Gilles_53

[MarkoZG]

Thank you Gilles, this is excellent supplement to the information gathered so far.

I only didn't understand quite well what did you mean by "somewhat semi-circular 'protections' under the lower wing".

Could you provide a photo explaining this detail?

Thank you very much.

[Gilles_53]

Well, I don't know the english word for it (nor the french word !).

Near the tip of bottom lower wing was attached some kind of semi-circular 'ring', to prevent a fresh pilot to have the tip of wing touching the ground, when landing or taking off not exactly horizontally. That should be quite easy to build with a stretched sprue put in the right shape. These parts were starting under each of the external struts (quite logical too). I think the Aero 504 did have the same tool (and probably other planes, too)

OK, you have it very apparent in the first two planes shown on Homebee first post, and also on the fourth one. You can't miss the thing on the pictures

[MarkoZG]

Hi Gilles, now I understand what you mean.

Regarding those pure SV.4 which were built first with differemt engines and as you said different wings, is there any other source which could provide data for the conversion of Frrom-Azur kit?

Thanks.

[Gilles_53]

Well - I know only the two books written by Réginald Jouhauld, maybe you will find something else on Internet.

In the Ouest France booklet you will find one photography, at least, of one of these first S.V.4 and a description (in french) giving the differences between them and the b version. But these were only for aerobatics and private use, not military (I don't know if they were pressed into service, if there are photos of these planes in the Army). So if you are looking for the pre-war belgian army Stampes, I am not sure you should include them. Transformation of the kits into the 30 Stampes delivered to the belgian army should be quite easy (see above)

The big books on the Stampe give more information, but not many photos (the booklet is clearly aiming at modeling people and give more photos and profiles)

You should remember also that belgian roundels did change before / after WWII (small additionnal circle was added to the roundel - I don't know exactly when the change took place, but it means you have to get belgian roundels WITHOUT this additionnal circle, if you go for a pre-WWII machine)

I will check on Friday the Ouest France booklet about the differences between the 4 S.V.4 and the S.V.4b, if you intend to go there (change of wings, at least, I believe - a bit more complicated)

Edited July 19, 2015 by Gilles_53

[Gilles_53]

OK - I got slightly different infos from the Ouest France booklet (number of first SV4).

1 - First SV4 wings were modified from the SV3 : the lower wing was not modified, but upper wing was moved forward. Prototype got the id : OO-ANI (first flight 17/05/1933). Six planes were built at the Stampe factory between 1933 and 1938, with a Gipsy Major. They were impressed into service at the Stampe school, in this order : OO-ANK, OO-AAC, OO-ACB, OO-APR and OO-ASU. The fourth (OO-APR ? or OO-ACB ?) was fitted during some months with a closed canopy, removed upon Jean Stampe 's instructions (no information on the canopy - same as the ones used later ?). {OK we have only 5 additionnal planes registered, 6 with the prototype, so the prototype OO-ANI should have been included in the 6 planes produced}

2 - Stampe did accept to modify the SV4 to have a belgian aerobatic plane, on request of Elza Leysen. It did result in the SV4 bis OO-JAN, which took some time and many modifications to fulfill Stampe 's requirements. Main modifications were :

- complete change of tail

- addition of two ailerons on UPPER wing

fitted first with a Gipsy (non inverted) then with a Gipsy Major.

The OO-JAN won the competition for training planes for Aé Mil (Belgian AF) in summer 1938, but no order came. A second plane, totally identical to the OO-JAN, was also built (september 1938) and sold to Brussels aviation club.

3 - The definitive S.V.4

Jean Stampe was willling to improve the S.V.4, in order to compete for the Aé Mil training planes in summer 1939. He wanted something no less than perfect. So, as says the book (roughly translated and summarized), going from the OO-JAN :

he "simplified everything. The fuselage was no more oval shaped in section, and the tail was again modified. The lower wing, now identical to the upper wing {which means they were NOT in the previous planes} were now swept. A dozen of windshields were tried before chosing the right one" and "wing profile was softened after a first show)."

Resulting plane was the OO-ATC (all red in Villacoublay) and OO-ATD, her backup. They won both the competition for Aé Mil (30 planes) and Armée de l'Air (300 planes). These were called S.V.4b or S.V.4bis (but differed quite a lot from OO-Jan and her twin, as explained before).

Not totallly clear on what happened to the 30 pre-war belgian Stampes, R. Jouhaud writes that 24 of these planes were sent to Oran (Algeria) on board of Algerie ship, then used by Free French Forces later in the war. Other sources states that these planes were sent to Congo (Belgian) and used by the belgian army. Some field to unusual paintings...

At this point, the story is known (no more 'protections' under wings, closed canopy for the belgian planes, Renault engine for most of the french planes) to go to the belgian and french post war series. But it might be quite a challenge to go for the 6 first SV4 (refered as 1 in the upper list) or the OO-JAN (and twin). Not sure there are plans available, and pictures might be rather scarce. Anyway, if you go there... good luck, that would request a brave man !

Edited August 4, 2015 by Gilles_53

[John B (Sc)]

Having just come across this thread, can I ask  any Stampe experts around on this site what is known about the licence manufacture of SV4C aircraft in France and Algeria?  Are there any lists of constrictor's numbers around to help determine which machines were built where?  

 

I do recall someone telling me that the early postwar Algerian built Stampes were considered to have been made to a different standard.

 

I haven't yet come across the Azur kit, though I still have an old Heller ~1/50th ? kit as well as a 7ft span Precedent kit (radio control) to build

Edited July 5, 2021 by John B (Sc)
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