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Redboost

Maryland AR707 turret?

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Dear colleagues,

can anobody confirm what type of turret was installed on Maryland AR707 flown by Adrian Warburton during Taranto recce flights on autumn 1940? I found several references mentioning AR707 was equipped with "Anson style" turret, but could not find any photograph confirming that.

Thanks

Libor

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This thread has some useful comments about Warburton's various aircraft. From Tony O'T's comment at Post #18, I'd suggest the installation of an Anson turret would be unlikely as it would cause too much drag given the recce role. Without photographic evidence one way or the other, it's up to you how you build it.

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I suspect the answer lies in the phrase "Anson-style". An actual Anson turret would indeed have been too large and too draggy, but the Marylands were delivered with turrets and I suspect this is what was being referred to.

Further, I don't believe the original turrets were powered, and if so will have relied on manpower (or more precisely footpower) to rotate: as did the Anson's initial turret.

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Presence of the "Anson" or "bird cage" turret (was that A.W. turret?) on a 431.flight's Maryland is documented on a picture in Tony O'Toole book and he stated in the post no.18 quoted above that some machines indeed got it installed, at least for some time. I really did not intend to open academic discussion, I'm a modeller not historian, so I just wanted to know if such picture confirming that thing on AR707 existed, or if anobody knows where it has been published. If not, then I can cope with that.

Cheers

Libor

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The photograph on p71 of AeroJournal Hors-serie 5 "Le Bombardment Francais Tome 1 1939/1940 confirms that these are different turrets.

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Thanks Graham, I see your point now. Anyway, I'll go ahead with the standard turret.

Cheers

Libor

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Profile 232 has a photo' of a Maryland, allegedly AH261 of 431 Flight, with the large Armstrong Whitworth manual turret fitted. It is much taller than the Martin item, which was also apparently manually operated.

Edited by leyreynolds

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Further, I don't believe the original turrets were powered, and if so will have relied on manpower (or more precisely footpower) to rotate: as did the Anson's initial turret.

On the french 167F, the turret do not swivel. it was opened 1/4 of circumference at the rear, and the 7,5mm machin gun could rotate 30 ° from either side, and 80 degrees in elevation.

the turret had three setting in height and could be jettisoned.

Cordially

BS_w

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The picture from the Profile No.232 booklet:

Mar%201%20001.jpg

A side profile from Monografie Lotnicze No. 96. This says it's fitted with a Blenhein turret:

Mar%202%20001.jpg

Chris

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Wouldn't set too much store by the Polish artwork: FW431 was a Baltimore V.

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Warburton`s usual gunner Sgt. Bast-ard had rigged up a twin gun mounting in the mid upper position of one of their Maryland`s, but I don`t know which one or whether it was used on most of the Maryland`s that they flew?

Good luck with the model Libor,

Cheers,

Tony

EDIT- I`ve had to write the gunners name with a `-' inbetween as otherwise his name gets changed to `sweetheart' by the website which was most certainly not his name! Around the time of Taranto the CO of 431 Flight `Tich' Whitely flew the majority of sorties and Warburton was used as a supernumary pilot `ie Navigator' for much of the Flights early existence. Indeed Warburton struggled to master the Maryland and wiped the u/c off one during a ground loop and had been sent to Malta with 431 Flight from 22 Sqn under a cloud after his unorthodox marriage met `difficulties'! Needless to say, he went on to carve his name in the history of the RAF & Malta!

Edited by tonyot

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Thanks for the additional information Tony, much appreciated!

As for the shot posted by Chris, this machine is described in Tony's book as AR713, the fourth to be delivered to 431. Flight and the slowest one due to drag caused by the turret. From this I suggest the other machines were faster due to the fact they got the standard turret. This turret does not look to be the 'Blenheim' type as described in the AJ Press nor 'Anson type; I may look into this later once I find the book on British turrets for identification.

The other machine depicted in the Tony's book is BJ 421 ( page 74) which got different type of turret which seems to be that AW turret known from Anson. That means there were , except the standard one, another two type of turrets mounted on Marylands.

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I'm not convinced these are two different turrets, given the poor resolution of the photo of AH713/AR713.

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Couple of observations:

- AH713 was assigned to an Airacobra sent to Russia: suggest we are talking AR713

- Similarly think we can discount [sorry: Redboost already has!] the suggestion in the Profile caption of the "big-turreted" Maryland being AH261: according to Air Britain that serial is from a block assigned to 75 Marylands bought in the USA but not used.

- At Redboost's suggestion I looked out Wallace Clarke's British Aircraft Armament Vol 1: RAF gun turrets from 1914 to the present day. Even allowing for the indistinctness of the photo, the shape of the turret, the sit of the gun in the turret and the arrangement of the struttery within the turret all look spookily like the side view drawing of the Whitley I AW.23 tail gun turret on p.21 (and as also used on Ansons and Oxfords). Alas I don't have Tony's book to comment on the arrangement on BJ421.

HTH

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A turret like this:

Chris

Yes, thanks for that. Though owing to reflections and the angle from which it is shown, the similarity in the struttery is not so apparent as in the side-view drawing.

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Hmmm...intriguing one. How would a Whitley tail turret find its way onto a Maryland operated from either Gibraltar or Malta? AFAIK, the only Whitleys associated with either location were BOAC airframes which were unarmed. I also have a hard time believing that spares would be provided to either location for an airframe that did not operate from there.

Finally, there's the whole "tail turret being fitted to the mid-upper location" problem. Access to tail turrets was typically via a pair of doors at the rear of the turret whereas access to mid-upper turrets was from the fuselage below. Seems a strange thing to use a tail turret in a mid-upper location.

Or am I missing something???

Cheers,
Mark

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What style of turret was fitted to the RAF Rescue launches? Would any of those be located at either Gibraltar or Malta?

Chris

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The turrets were not fitted at Malta - one of the photos in Tony's book shows an aircraft at Takoradi with this turret. Although the example in the Whitley tail will have had rear doors (I presume) this wasn't true of the basically-same turret in the Anson and Oxford.

I think these were the same style as fitted to the ASR launches, and it's a good thought, but in view of Tony's photo it becomes irrelevant.

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The turrets were not fitted at Malta - one of the photos in Tony's book shows an aircraft at Takoradi with this turret. Although the example in the Whitley tail will have had rear doors (I presume) this wasn't true of the basically-same turret in the Anson and Oxford.

I think these were the same style as fitted to the ASR launches, and it's a good thought, but in view of Tony's photo it becomes irrelevant.

Does anyone have that book and could post a copy of that photo?

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Does anyone have that book and could post a copy of that photo?

I would rather you didn`t as it is mine under copyright and I paid good money for it!

Cheers

Tony

Edited by tonyot

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I would rather you didn`t as it is mine under copyright and I paid good money for it!

Cheers

Tony

Hi

Your lucky :)

getting an origonal negative from WW2 is rare,

I only have copyright on a very few of the many photos I have obtained,

many have no origonal negative :(

cheers

jerry

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So, unless I happen to find Tony's book and purchase it, I'll never get to see this Maryland with the unusual turret fitted?

Chris

Edited by dogsbody

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I know, it really is terribly unfair and old fashioned for someone to spend many hours of their own time, and their own money on things like photographs (originals or good prints, and reproduction rights from archives), digest the information, distill it into a quality narrative, assemble the whole, and then have the gall to actually ask someone to pay for a copy.

I assume it is THIS BOOK, and I've provided a link to Amazon UK, where a copy can be purchased.

bob

Edited by gingerbob

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So, unless I happen to find Tony's book and purchase it, I'll never get to see this Maryland with the unusual turret fitted?

Chris

Hi

I imagine a google search may yield something ?

but it reminds me i have some malta photos somewhere ?

cheers

jerry

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