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expositor

Swordfish radar display

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Hello All,

Had a question about the cockpit display for the yagi radar-equipped Swordfish, which ostensibly still had provision for a crew of three. Where was the set and the shielded viewer, if there was one? The planes with the belly radome had all the equipment in the observer's space with that cover and the extended viewer. So what about the earlier radar-equipped planes?

Thanks in advance!

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Some of the RN flown Mk.III`s still carried a 3 man crew and I`ve wondered where the radar boxes could have been fitted on these too?

I can only think that most of the `gubbins' on the Yagi Mk.II`s and also the Scanner equipped 3 man Mk.III`s was fitted into the space under the pilot which was originally designed for bomb aiming?

The RN flown Mk.III`s which I`m thinking of were mostly black painted aircraft from 819 NAS engaged on anti U-Boat operations from Belgium as part of 2nd TAF during 1944-45, here is a model that I made of one just for info;

2nd%20TAF%20Swordfish-2_zpsnqcgeiey.jpg

2nd%20TAF%20Swordfish-1_zpsiped7jrj.jpg

Cheers

Tony

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Thanks Tony, another great model. Still seems strange to have radar antennas and a miniscule, or missing(?) PPI unshielded from surrounding light...unless they were used at night. There was that period during 1944(?) when the U-Boats were ordered to fight it out at the surface with attacking a/c, though said a/c wouldn't necessarily need radar for that in daytime, though I assume it would be a big help.

Thanks again! I really do like that Swordfish!!!

Edited by expositor

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Well, I think I found the answer to me own question....Just dug out my copy of the Swordfish Aeroguide, and after staring for some time at the cockpit photo (page escapes me) with a special direction finding loop set-up, I noticed down by the gunner's seat is the PPI's goggle-shroud standing straight up just under the machine gun. Or so it looks like it to me....

If anyone has that book, take a look....

Cheerio!

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Agree it looks like a shroud for a scope. Would be happier though if photo depicted an in-service aircraft rather then what I take to be a trials one. Especially since putting the scope there would appear to make operating it a TAG job: I would have expected it to be an Observer role. Do we know for sure from any of the autobiographies (Lamb, Welham, Moffat, Brand, Woods) whose job it was?

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I would have thought that the TAG would be just the bloke to operate the radar as the Observer would be busy keeping the navigation sorted out in dark over the sea, usually in poor weather?

Sounds like you may have solved the conundrum there `expositor',.....although as Seahawk says it would be nice to know for real. Mind you the TAG only ever gets a passing mention in most Fleet Air Arm books (what with being a lower deck `oik' and all that!) so that might explain why the radar is not mentioned?

Cheers

Tony

PS- Glad you like the model,.....I reckon that the so called overall black`NF' coded RAF Swordfish from 119 Sqn were finished in the same scheme too!

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Hi Tony and 'hawk,

Agreed, that photo is not of a service aircraft, but it seems to be one of the few (only?) showing the PPI 'scope' down where the rest of the radio equipment is housed, so we would have to assume the TAG is the guy with that task.

Tony, I really do like your 'fish; I might even copy it someday...well, start and just add it to all the others in various stages of building and waiting for paint....

Cheerio,

Jim

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This is the early layout according to the A.P:-

PICT0108_zpswfydb94b.jpg

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Thanks very much Edgar,

You wouldn't happen to have the same for the Swordfish Mk II ASV radar installation?

Cheers,

Daniel.

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This was the only other A.P. that I found; apparently the same gear went into the Barracuda:-

PICT0125_zpsrpuezl1q.jpg

Plus this:-

PICT0126_zpswnhwbxds.jpg

Edited by Edgar

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Thanks Edgar,

Not quite what I'm after, nonetheless it is interesting just the same.

Cheers,

Daniel.

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This was the only other A.P. that I found; apparently the same gear went into the Barracuda:-PICT0125_zpsrpuezl1q.jpgPlus this:-PICT0126_zpswnhwbxds.jpg

The same gear definitely went into the Barra, because my Dad's log book contains quite a few entries where he was in the back of a Swordfish doing radar exercises - but he was only ever front line on the Barra. He flew in a bewildering variety of types during training (including Wellington and Albacore), but the radar trips to prepare him for front line Barracuda work were all in a Swordfish

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU

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One question about the markings on the model. Are you sure about the C1 type upper plane roundel? B type was the regulation even after the C type introduced in January 1945 but not for night flying aircraft.

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Hiya Mike,

Yes I have a photo of a Swordfish serving with 2nd TAF wearing the upper wing C1 Type,....the same photo shows another in the background wearing the C1 Type under the wings too, as per 2nd TAF orders.

I`d not heard that it was only for day flying aircraft in 2nd TAF but wasn`t one of the reason for the C1 Type roundels being applied to make them stand out better so that they were not shot at by USAAF fighters? Well if I were flying a Swordfish over Belgium in 1945 I`d like to have the high viz roundels in situ in case I had to make a flight in daylight or twilight,.....rather than argue toe toss with a trigger happy Mustang pilot about night flying types being allowed to retain B Type roundels!

Just my two penneth,.....who knows the real reason?

Cheers

Tony

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I am led to believe that the reason for applying the C type roundel. note the AMO specifies C type, was to enhance visiblity of the marking to Soviet aircraft which may be encountered during the final days of the war. There had been friendly fire incidents between US and Russian fighters already by January 1945. The yellow outer ring was not sanctioned, some units either misunderstood the AMO or willfully applied the extra ring. Soewhere here I have copy of the directive, it will take time to dig it out though.

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I found two published notes regarding the changed upper wing roundel but not the AMO yet. Paul Lucas in 'Camouflage & Markings No.1; RAF Day Fighters 1945-1950 UK Based' As an aid for the identification of RAF for those aircraft of Allied nations operating alongside the RAF, apparently due to continual problems experienced with aircraft identification in daylight following the Normandy landings. It was therefore decided to revert a red, white and blue roundel on upper surfaces. Cypher AX110, 2 January A.M. to RAF Command HQ at home and overseas, Air Staff SHAEF, HQ 2nd TAF et al; WEF 7th January: Aircraft were to revert to red, white and blue roundels on the upper surfaces of the mainplanes in place of National Marking 1. (Otherwise better known as B type)

All aircraft of RAF and RN except:

1) Aircraft with primary role involving night operations, operational and operational training aircraft of Bomber Command or night fighter/ intruder aircraft of Fighter Command.

2) Aircraft operating in Air Command South East Asia and the Pacific areas where the blue and white roundel was in effect.

This was new marking given the new designation National Marking 1A. Basically it was an enlarged version of National Marking II ( C type).

The obvious application of a yellow surround may have come about due to some confusion at MUs and squadron level when the marking was applied. this can be as simple an officer pointing at a fuselage roundel and telling someone to "do it like that". In regard to a Swordfish, the mainplanes would need to be removed to apply the new marking, unlike many aircraft you cannot stand on fabric to repaint the roundel. Probably an MU job with no intervention by aircrew.

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