Jump to content

SBS DH88 Comet, interior color question


espeefan

Recommended Posts

Very nice kit for anyone interested. In the USA, UMM.USA has it for a reasonable price. The one thing its lacking is color callouts. I can guess at some, but I'm not finding any information on the interior, wheel wells and the landing gear. Anyone have any ideas? I have photos of the restoration, but not sure how accurate it is. Looks like they used Interior Green, and I doubt it was in usage when they were built. TIA for any help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good question. I currently build an Heritage Aviations DH 88 in the Non Injected GB (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980955-148-de-havilland-dh-88-comet-heritage-aviation/). My guess is: Cockpit over all black - including the inner canopy framing. There are few period pics I have and they all look like a very dark cockpit colour - darker than the WWII green. The area behind the cockpit is much lighter - I guess varnished wood.

The u/c legs are black but the u/c bays???? My guess is varnished wood for some protection against moisture etc.

Rene

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Rene. Black, interesting and not unprecedented by any means. In 1/72 I guess a dark grey would be a good approximation and still show off some details.

I checked your build-that's some awesome reconstructive surgery you are doing on the kit. Very impressive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi espeefan,

Harry Robinson gives the following colours for the cockpit:

All surfaces - plain varnish

Seats - black

Throttles, control levers and undercarriage wheel - natural alloy

Knobs and lever tops - black vulcanite

Top decking from windscreen to front panel - matt black

Panel colours :- front panel - matt black, rear panel - varnished timber.

All instruments - black bodies and dials, white markings.

I'm guessing that the woodwork in the cockpit was mostly ply and would have been fairly light in colour.

He doesn't give details of the wheel bay colours but surely most of the engine cowl would have been metal so maybe some sort of primer.

Hope this helps.

Dave

PS, the modern cockpit has a black padded interior but I don't think this was originally fitted - more likely a little creature comfort, something not considered a priority in the '30s!

Edited by Fastcat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am really not sure about some colour call outs from Harry Robinson - not because I am a know-it-all but because of a few period pics which I found. I need to check my hard drive at home. I seem to remember more pictures than the few below:

dh88colour_zps77llcggx.jpg

#1 shows the lighter colour behind the cockpit which seems to be varnished wood to me. The cockpit is however very dark, which is shown by #3 as well.

#2 shows the inner canopy framing which seems to be black. Same as on the restored DH 88

#3 the cockpit sides look dark to me - though not much can be seen.

#4 Dave is right - the cowlings are metal of course. So these parts could be aluminium on the inside. There is not much to make out from this picture, but it could be even black as the u/c legs??? There is more trouble ahead with my build than just the little surgery...

If I find more pics I will post them here.

Thanks for your coment.

Rene

Edit: One more thing if you build the original livery - there is a discussion about the white stripe. Some say it was silver because there is a grading clearly visible. This grading is exactly the same on every picture - no matter which angle or daytime. It always starts to fade from 100% white to 0% white (background colour - red). You can see it in the pictures above as well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rene,

Forgot to say, Inner cockpit framing is dark and so probably black as it was almost certainly metal and there are photos in David Ogilvy's book which show this.

I don't think you can draw any conclusion from notes 3 and 4 as there isn't sufficient resolution or tonal range to be sure. There are better photos in the Ogilvy book which show a slightly lighter tone and there is a photo of F-ANPY which shows the wooden construction and also the lighter tones of the cockpit sides compared with the black of the instrument panel. I'd go with Harry Robinson on this.

There's also a drawing in the book (maybe from Flight magazine?) which shows the cockpit as from the race. There is no padding, various wires are exposed and interestingly, there's a typewriter strapped to the face of the rear instrument panel.

The fading of the stripe's been discussed before. It was deliberate and represented the tail of the comet after which the aircraft was named. There's an early picture showing a much shorter version. I think this was simply extended in its final colour scheme. There's no evidence to suggest that it was silver.

Dave

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The picture with the typewriter should be anywhere here on my drive but I cannot find it - does not matter - here is an online article with a nice picture:

http://oztypewriter.blogspot.de/2012/07/famous-much-travelled-typewriter-turns.html

At this time G-ACSS was repainted in the "Australian Anniversary" livery (not red "Grovener House" but the later Cellon "Morning Mist" and light blue scheme). It will not mean any difference to the cockpit colours I bet despite wear and tear from four years use (see here for example: http://www.thisdayinaviation.com/26-march-1938/and here: http://dh88.airwar1946.nl/Comets/GACSS.htm).

You can see the wood grain on the side walls clearly. There is a colour pic of the typewriter below which is a hammer blow paint in a grey-green colour. In the b/w picture the side walls are much darker than the typewriter. I have an old car with black varnished (not painted) wood panels in the trunk which are showing the wood grain clearly as well but darker than in the DH 88 picture (I think so). So maybe it is darkend wood because of sunlight and dirt? I am not convinced yet. It could be still a black worn varnish.

Rene

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a great find Rene! Brilliant article and picture.

I'm sure you're right about the finish being retained.

Aircraft plywood was usually birch or mahogany faced so it's quite possible that the cockpit sides were in mahogany ply which is a reddish brown and relatively dark when varnished. That would explain both the wood grain and dark appearance.

Birch ply would be much lighter unless a stain was used.

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgot to say, seriously impressed with your photo etched stuff for the Comet. I think most folks would appreciate some sensible p/e rather than a few crude bits of cast metal or resin. I like the subjects that Heritage do but some of the mastering is a bit iffy to say the least. I'd love some decent models of the Midgets and Cosmic Wind but life's too short to start whittling resin to get a good result................................!

Good luck with your build.

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I'm glad I started this! Those pictures and articles are great and I don't think my google-fu would have uncovered them. I think I'll go with a combination of black and varnished wood. Somethings are clearly black in the photo with the typewriter but the metal bits look black. Will make a decent contrast if nothing else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All interesting stuff as I've just been asked to build the model for an upcoming article in Airfix Model World. Having received the model from them yesterday I must say that I'm very impressed with the quality of the mouldings. I build a lot of resin kits as a few of you may be aware but must say that this is of the highest quality I've come across. Not knowing much about the type I was pondering over the colour of the interior too so this information will be extremely useful.

Cheers....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can see the wood grain on the side walls clearly. There is a colour pic of the typewriter below which is a hammer blow paint in a grey-green colour. In the b/w picture the side walls are much darker than the typewriter. I have an old car with black varnished (not painted) wood panels in the trunk which are showing the wood grain clearly as well but darker than in the DH 88 picture (I think so). So maybe it is darkend wood because of sunlight and dirt? I am not convinced yet. It could be still a black worn varnish.

Rene

Please bear in mind that the cockpit side walls are at a different angle to the typewriter top and form a different reflective plane under the same illuminant direction as well as appearing to be in shadow. You cannot compare the tone of the two as like for like in trying to ascertain their colour.

FWIW they are possibly plain plywood (in shadow) and only the framing painted black per Robinson.

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

For those interested A.E.Clouston wrote a book called 'The Dangerous Skies' detailing his racing, test pilot and RAF career. My paperback copy has some photos but none really helpful although they show the inside of the canopy framing.

Ross

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion. Further to it I am interested in the prototype which became "Black Magic". When it first flew it only had "E.1" on the fuselage in white. What was the airframe colour? It certainly not black. I suspect that being a prototype it was left in undercoat / primer but what colour? What colour primer did DH use in those days?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...

If I may jump in on this one. I'm just doing a build of the Aerotech 1:32 model.

I spoke to the Black Beauty restoration team on this one for nearly three hours on a recent visit. Robinson's colour call outs are wrong on many details for example the different colours of the three fuel caps which re clearly not black and white but the same colour as the bodywork .

There is a picture in Ogilvys book of Grosvenor House being restored that shows the stripped down cockpit being rebuilt and the wood work shows through as chips under light coloured paint.

caerbannog .. The wood grain you refer to in that picture is almost certainly dirt as the Comet was several years old at this point and the cockpit had been heavily modified from it's 1934 race fit.

The standard De Havilland finish was interior green with black and metal fittings. Please refer to pictures of Rapides, Tiger and Leopard moths. The seats on Black Beauty were from a leopard Moth by the way.

And when BB was the prototype, DH liked to paint everything silver.

Andrew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PS

The SBS kit is closer to the restored Grosvenor House so the cockpit should be black. If you open up the oil filler point on each wing, remove the surrounding panel and add the metal walkway from the wingbrootbto the engine nacels you get close the te 1930s machines. See pictures above on this topic in another post or visit my build log.

Andrew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

for example the different colours of the three fuel caps which re clearly not black and white but the same colour as the bodywork .

Hi Andrew,

Have a look at Caerbannog's five photos earlier in the thread. The forward filler cap looks very much darker than the body in the shot of Grosvenor House in the sling. I can't believe it's body colour. There is a higher resolution shot here:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn3722841

There is another high angle shot of the aircraft on the ground showing the same feature. In Caerbannog's pictures with the No 3 the rtear cap looks a little lighter but that's not so apparent. Maybe the front cap's been removed but I very much doubt that.:http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn3722816

Just thought I'd add to the confusion!

Dave :mental:

As a postscript, I think you have the Ogilvy book - have a look at page 65. There's a great overhead shot of -CSS in the docks. The rear filler cover is clearly white or aluminium, the latter being more likely. The front cover looks as though it was indeed missing. I would have expected it to be the same as the rear cover. It also shows well the drift markers on the leading edge of the wings, the only photo I've seen which clearly shows this. Seemingly Robinson was right or partially right about the fuel caps.

Regarding the cockpit colours, - CSS was later taken over by the RAF. The standard colour for RAF cockpits was green. Did they paint it that way? And surely civilian Leopard Moths had upholstered cockpit sides. Some did anyway and also had a wood-grained instrument panel. Tiger Moths were a service aircraft so would have been green as a matter of course. And weren't the cockpit sides fabric so they had to be painted anyway?

Harry Robinson had a lot of information from the Shuttleworth Trust. They aren't infallible by any means but did have access to the original. We'll probably never know the real truth.

Regarding the Leopard Moth seats, as a civil aircraft surely these were upholstered too? Were parachutes even carried on the Australia flight? The RAF would probably have fitted service seats later for parachutes but I don't think they were used in the race.

Parachutes were used on some of the later record flights - there is an account of Gordon McArthur jumping out of a bedroom window to see what the landing would be like!

Most civilian pilots didn't carry a 'chute. Henshaw certainly didn't in the Mew Gull. He sat on a cushion on the floor for the Cape dash!

Edited by Fastcat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

(...)

The standard De Havilland finish was interior green with black and metal fittings. Please refer to pictures of Rapides, Tiger and Leopard moths. The seats on Black Beauty were from a leopard Moth by the way.

And when BB was the prototype, DH liked to paint everything silver.

Andrew

I can imagine that the difference between the Comets and the Rapides/Moths was: The Comets were build for a race so maybe (!?!?!?!) protective paint was not needed but regarded as extra weight. Just a thought. Or did the restoration team said that the Black Beauty cockpit was painted silver or green?

Rene

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...