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PilotOfficer

Seafire Mk III question

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The fairings were all build on the same sets of jigs, so would not vary significantly once scaled down to model size. There does seem to be a misunderstanding amongst many modellers, unacquainted with actual engineering practice, that aircraft were thrown together in the "old days" and any old set of dimensions would do, Not true: major parts were manufactured to accuracies of a few tens of thou. Which doesn't mean that every part was identical and readily interchangeable (an alternative misunderstanding). David Brown's comments in "Seafire" on the difficulties in fixing these fairings under sea-going conditions is illuminating.

I entirely agree that no model is 100% accurate, and compromises are inevitable. However to end with "it looks like a Seafire" really doesn't help - so does a Wrenn caricature, and I think few models differ from the original by that much!

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I agree that the fairings were built on jigs and so would theoretically be identical , but a Westland built fairing would not nescessarily be the same or identical to a Supermarine built one , indeed photographic evidence would show variations as show by the recent discussion of the fairings on the Eduard Spitfires as compared to other kits.

My remark " it still loks like a Seafire " was intended as an attempt at a humourous dig at another poster who questioned the accuracy of my modification, it was not intended to be taken seriously.

Andrew

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If you take Monforton's book on the Mk.IX & XVI, he has an interesting conclusion based on measurements of several airframes. None of these are identical. There are small differences between each of them. It probably means nothing for a scale model (we are talking about milimeters on the real thing), but in some way no model can be perfect because the original will always be individual.

I was rather surprised when I read his book, but he seems to know what he is talking about.

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If you take Monforton's book on the Mk.IX & XVI, he has an interesting conclusion based on measurements of several airframes. None of these are identical. There are small differences between each of them. It probably means nothing for a scale model (we are talking about milimeters on the real thing), but in some way no model can be perfect because the original will always be individual.

I was rather surprised when I read his book, but he seems to know what he is talking about.

Even in more modern times does this still apply. Anyone familiar with the RAF's Tucanos will know they varied greatly in length and panels etc will only fit the aircraft it came from. Some differed up to six inches in length!

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Even in more modern times does this still apply. Anyone familiar with the RAF's Tucanos will know they varied greatly in length and panels etc will only fit the aircraft it came from. Some differed up to six inches in length!

I recall speaking to someone about the Shuttleworth example and he muttered that 'something' was awry with the fuselage dimensions after he had measured it. Being an aeronautical engineer I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Unfortunately I never found out what it was though.

Another example of airframe differences were the cowlings on the Boulton Paul Balliol. Those made by Blackburn were not interchangeable with B-P ones.

Can the Montforden plans be bought separately from his book?

Trevor

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20-odd years ago, the Westland historian would occasionally visit the model shop, where I worked. I remember him telling me how, on airframes for repair, panels, doors, etc., from Westland and Supermarine could be thrown in a heap, and then pulled out to be refitted on any of their Spitfires; Castle Bromwich panels had to remain with their particular airframe, because they wouldn't fit any other.

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No kit is 100% accurate and no modification will be 100% accurate , the best we can hope for is a compromise. My modification to the SH Seafire is just that , a compromise to get the best result with the materials availible . The SH kit is correct in the distance from the nose to the leading edge of the wing , the distance from the seat mounting frame to the tail is also close to being correct, however, the overall length is approx 3mm too short and the trailing edge of the wing is 3mm too far back . The trailing edge should line up with the seat frame , { it being mounted to it }.

The "Bizarre chop job" as you call it , cures these deficencies without interfering with the wing mounting , it does not move the cockpit closer to the tail , this relatioship is unaffected, I have never claimed 100% accuracy, but it is an improvement on the kit and is much easier that the "botch" recommended by Troy. As for his fixation with the position of the wing fillet , I would point out that these were only light metal fairings and not structural so would they have all been identical or show variations ?

Thank you for your response Andrew.

regarding your assertions on the length fault, what is you methodology or sources you have used for the dimensions stated?

the wing TE position etc is discussed here.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/page-2#entry1756881

If the new Airfix Vb is not correct, then my use of it as a 3-D guide is will be in error. The modifications I have described and illustrated are based on this.

EDIT

SHspitfire_zpsaba0cd79.jpg

From my methodolgy, the wing needs to come forward, the rear fillet/trailing edge needs reshaping,

The rear fuselage is short in front of the tail, and by adding 3 mm in one place, in effect, this moves the cockpit back.

in the photo below I did my best to use the cutting mat lines so the fuselages are lined up, some lens distortion is visible, but note where the mat lines are in relationship to the parts.

AF_vs_SH_align_on_mat_IMG_0451.jpg

Note also these cuts if done carefully will allow retention of fine surface detail, where your cut will destroy much of it in the restoration process.

I would also like to ask why Troy recommends the SH kit over the Airfix conversion inquired about by the original poster , when he admits that the SH kit is flawed and needs a lot of modifications to fix.

regarding this point?

Simply relative amounts of cost and effort depending on base kits and spare parts needed.

The SH kit is a base Seafire, it has arrestor hook, folding wing detail, 4 blade prop, 6 stack exhausts, strengthener plates etc, as well as some useful etch parts and appropriate decals, it also has finer surface detail than either Airfix as well, including even representation of lapped panels on the rear fuselage.

Cross kitting the Airfix VB fuselage with the Seafire XVII wing, first having both kits, then getting the wing to fit, adjusting the wing shape, filling radiator, and then having the Seafire specific parts and decals available, as a dedicated Spitfire modeller you are likely to have these, if you OP would just like a Seafire III, perhaps not.

If the origiinal poster would like something that looks like a Seafire III then theSH kit built out the box would provide all the bits needed in one place.

This is what i mean by relative effort and cost, and why I would suggest the SH Seafire as the best starting point for a Seafire II or III from 'standing start' so to speak, even with the modifications I proposed it would still be less work and outlay.

For a Seafire IB i would modify the Airfix VB though.

From other threads on this (like the linked Seafire XV one) you seem to have a personal dislike of the SH kits, and a fondness for Airfix, which you are entitled too, but as the linked Seafire XV thread shows, the Airfix Spit XII is pretty wonky, but you seemed quite happy with it unmodified as a base kit for a Seafire XV.

I try to avoid bias, but am interested in accuracy, and am always happy to learn and be corrected with new information.

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...

Can the Montforden plans be bought separately from his book?

Trevor

I think they are out of print. I have also been looking for them.

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Thank you for your response Andrew.

regarding your assertions on the length fault, what is you methodology or sources you have used for the dimensions stated?

the wing TE position etc is discussed here.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/page-2#entry1756881

If the new Airfix Vb is not correct, then my use of it as a 3-D guide is will be in error. The modifications I have described and illustrated are based on this.

EDIT

SHspitfire_zpsaba0cd79.jpg

From my methodolgy, the wing needs to come forward, the rear fillet/trailing edge needs reshaping,

The rear fuselage is short in front of the tail, and by adding 3 mm in one place, in effect, this moves the cockpit back.

in the photo below I did my best to use the cutting mat lines so the fuselages are lined up, some lens distortion is visible, but note where the mat lines are in relationship to the parts.

AF_vs_SH_align_on_mat_IMG_0451.jpg

Note also these cuts if done carefully will allow retention of fine surface detail, where your cut will destroy much of it in the restoration process.

regarding this point?

Simply relative amounts of cost and effort depending on base kits and spare parts needed.

The SH kit is a base Seafire, it has arrestor hook, folding wing detail, 4 blade prop, 6 stack exhausts, strengthener plates etc, as well as some useful etch parts and appropriate decals, it also has finer surface detail than either Airfix as well, including even representation of lapped panels on the rear fuselage.

Cross kitting the Airfix VB fuselage with the Seafire XVII wing, first having both kits, then getting the wing to fit, adjusting the wing shape, filling radiator, and then having the Seafire specific parts and decals available, as a dedicated Spitfire modeller you are likely to have these, if you OP would just like a Seafire III, perhaps not.

If the origiinal poster would like something that looks like a Seafire III then theSH kit built out the box would provide all the bits needed in one place.

This is what i mean by relative effort and cost, and why I would suggest the SH Seafire as the best starting point for a Seafire II or III from 'standing start' so to speak, even with the modifications I proposed it would still be less work and outlay.

For a Seafire IB i would modify the Airfix VB though.

From other threads on this (like the linked Seafire XV one) you seem to have a personal dislike of the SH kits, and a fondness for Airfix, which you are entitled too, but as the linked Seafire XV thread shows, the Airfix Spit XII is pretty wonky, but you seemed quite happy with it unmodified as a base kit for a Seafire XV.

I try to avoid bias, but am interested in accuracy, and am always happy to learn and be corrected with new information.

It would seem to me that a study of both methods side by side gives basically the same results , You've lengthened the nose , i've lengthened the nose, does this move the cockpit back or the nose forwards ? , You move the wing forwards and trim the traing edge fillet, my method automatically moves the wing with the nose, both methods give us the wing in the correct realationship to the cockpit. Are you correct , am I correct ? , with the exception of the tailend stretch I would suggest the end results are almost identical ,or at least close enough that it's not worth arguing about.

I have no particular dislike for the SH kits ,but prefer working with the Airfix models because they are easier for me to obtain. Incidentally my Seafire XV conversion was built before the SH Seafire XV was released.

Andrew

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I think they are out of print. I have also been looking for them.

The book seems to be available at various prices though......

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/ol/1550461486/ref=olp_page_previous

Trevor

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The book seems to be available at various prices though......

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/ol/1550461486/ref=olp_page_previous

Trevor

I believe that you got it wrong. Your linked showed up Bracken's the Canadians vol. 2, Monforton is here http://www.amazon.com/Spitfire-Mk-IX-XVI-Engineered/dp/0978400100/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437160237&sr=1-2&keywords=monforton

and it is not cheap.

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But try this link

http://www.monfortonpress.com/

It seems that it is still available at $ 75.00 (worth every cent), and as an E-book for only $23.50.

The drawings also seems to be available again.

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NPL!

Ouch that's expensive.....

Trevor

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I love the sh seafire but consider other decals they ruined mine as the didn't like setting solutions and smudged Decal and nk everywhere just a bit gutted because the kit is fantastic

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I love the sh seafire but consider other decals they ruined mine as the didn't like setting solutions and smudged Decal and nk everywhere just a bit gutted because the kit is fantastic

I had that problem but put it down to my ineptitude (which it probably was). Waiting for my BPF decal pack to turn up so that I can rebuild them..

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