Seafire Mk III question

[PilotOfficer]

Hi all,

Just been playing with hypotheticals - would it be possible to combine the wings from the Airfix Seafire Mk. XVII with a Spitfire Mk. V fuselage to create a Seafire Mk. III?

Thanks for any advice.

[Miggers]

Certainly would.

Been done on here too IIRC,at the very least,an XII has been combined with XVII wings to get

an XV.

You'd need to sort out plugging the gap for the stb'd rad and replace that with the V's oil cooler

then put the strengtheners on the V's fuselage and sort out the hook,but apart from that,yes it's a goer.

[tonyot]

Yes,.....you`ll need a 4 bladed prop and individual ejector exhausts plus you`ll have to add the external bracing on the fuselage,.....so perfectly do-able.

Cheers

Tony

[Col.]

I'm thinking the Special Hobby kit may be an easier route to that end but not tried building my one yet...

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

What scale?

thanks

Mike

[Chuck1945]

What scale?

thanks

Mike

Since one of the OPs donner kits would be an Airfix Seafire XVII, the scale is 1/48

[PilotOfficer]

Thanks for your advice gents, I can confirm the intended scale for the conversion is 1:48. As I said I'm just talking hypotheticals here, but I might just start a conversion as soon as I get my hands on donor kits. Should have plenty of time now that my A levels are over!

[Troy Smith]

IMHO, get the SH Seafire III kit. It has some faults, but does have all the necessary bits in the box, and will be cheaper than buying two kits.

You could use the Airfix folded wing, or just outer wings, with the SH kit if you wanted the folding wing option.

There have been discussions on this here, I'll dig them out and edit in later.

This is a similar discussion

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/

And covers the SH kit problems.

also this

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234983160-airfix-148-spitfire-vb-to-vc/

Note, that while I have not hacked up a SH Seafire III, yet, I have done the basics to the Tamiya Spitfire, which is the same basic idea.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968337-two-148-mkvb-spitfires-tamiya-and-airfix-new-spitfire-collection-expansion-project-finished-photos-now-in-the-rfi-section-080615/page-3

scroll down.

There's a lot of info in the above links, so may take a while to digest.

Better hack that Seafire III soon as well....

T

[Grey Beema]

I have the SH Seafire III mostly built (if I could figure out how to post a picture, I would). I don't know about shape accuracy but it looks ok to me. Makes up quite well but I found the decals fragile (I could just be out of practice). I have a SH MkII in the stash too... And a MK XVII and a 47....

[85sqn]

Another one from recently:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234982704-seafire-mkiii-from-airfix-spitfire-vb-seafire-xvii/

[Troy Smith]

I have the SH Seafire III mostly built (if I could figure out how to post a picture, I would). I don't know about shape accuracy but it looks ok to me. Makes up quite well but I found the decals fragile (I could just be out of practice). I have a SH MkII in the stash too... And a MK XVII and a 47....

Photos, common problem with new members, they need to be hosted somewhere online, photobucket, Flickr, Postimage, your own webspace if you have some, even facebook....then add the image URL into the image box in the toolbar. To get the image URL, just right click it, you should get a menu saying 'copy image URL' do that and put that in the Image box.

The accuracy of the SH kit is discussed in the links I posted.

The Seafire XV thread - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/

has comparisons of various kits,

and the Airfix/Tamiya build has how to correct the length, and thus the wing position

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968337-two-148-mkvb-spitfires-tamiya-and-airfix-new-spitfire-collection-expansion-project-finished-photos-now-in-the-rfi-section-080615/page-3

Sorry if this sounds testy, but I've been noticing that too often the posted links, which in this case discuss the questions asked in detail, do not get read.

here's another

http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/gb/spits/rolsea3.htm

Fernando's build of a SH Seafire III with an ICM IX fuselage.

Very well done, but is this actually easier than adding a section to the SH fuselage, as shown in the Airfix/Tamiya thread?

The ICM needs some tweaks as well. It also wastes a good kit, though you could use the leftover wings to make a Vc from the Airfix Vb.

[Troy Smith]

Right, quick bit of kit chopping later,

this is the Special Hobby Seafire III, dark grey, the light grey is the Airfix Vb.

There is a 1mm splice in the SH fuselage, and a block 1.68mm square rod at the leading edge, needs filing to shape, the orange at the rear of SH fuselage fillet shows where it needs trimming, the orange pencil tip show how the Airfix fuselage now lines up with the trailing edge of the SH wing, which is an excellent match for the Airfix.

Needs a little rescribing at the leading edge/cowl join.

There you go, wing moved, fuselage right length at front. This was just done to demonstrate the basic idea, that despite some posts to the contrary which make all sorts of wild claims about the SH kit, especially this

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/page-3#entry1758558

and come up with some round the houses corrections, it's actually quite simple.

I need to add some other pics and more info, but this is the 'hard' part done.

this shot shows that if you can be bothered that a 1mm extension is needed in front of the rear transport joint, this being Airfix Vb against SH III again.

The other red lines shows the fillet trim and nose length difference.

Most of the effect could be achieved by just moving the wing forward.

This really needs a separate post, but before commenting on this fix, read the linked threads in post #8, as they explain how this fix is worked out, the short being that the new Airfix Vb kit can be used as a 3-D guide, if matches that, it's correct.

read this post for a more detailed explanation.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/page-3#entry1758582

in particular the leading edge/cowl panel line joint.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Since one of the OPs donner kits would be an Airfix Seafire XVII, the scale is 1/48

Is a Donner kit similar to a donner kebab? Or do you actually mean donor? If you're going to come across as a condescending smarta**e, at least learn to spell.

Anyway I thought it would be 1/48 but it's best not to assume, as we all know the saying about assumption.

I would also suggest just getting the Special Hobby kit (and either accept any faults or correct them) unless you have already got the 2 Airfix kits and don't want to make them as intended. It certainly would be cheaper just buying the 1 kit rather than 2 kits!

thanks

Mike

[PilotOfficer]

On reflection I'll just get the Special Hobby kit at some point. I was originally planning a conversion to use up some spare Seafire 17 wings, but this has been negated by the fact that I can't actually find them! As you've said, getting the SH kit will be the cheaper option in the end, and correcting the errors (as Troy Smith has kindly shown how to do) should be less work than converting two kits.

[Alex Gordon]

Is a Donner kit similar to a donner kebab? Or do you actually mean donor? If you're going to come across as a condescending smarta**e, at least learn to spell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doner_kebab

[Andrew Jones]

Perfectly possible , and if you care about accuracy or want a Seafire III with folded wings , that's the way to go. I did the same thing a couple of years ago.

I used the old Airfix Vb , but would use the latest kit if doing it again , a smear of Milliput will be needed around the wing roots and to fair in the underwing oil cooler.

Andrew

[Troy Smith]

On 27/6/2015 at 17:57, Andrew Jones said:

Perfectly possible , and if you care about accuracy or want a Seafire III with folded wings , that's the way to go. I did the same thing a couple of years ago.

Andrew

you care about accuracy, but don't seem to be very good at achieving it, or responding to my posts questioning your 'corrections'

You claim accuracy of the Airfix Mk XII (used in your Seafire XV), and the inaccuracy of the SH Seafire XV, as stated here

 

Andrew Jones, on 04 Oct 2014 - 5:37 PM, said:

On 4/10/2014 at 17:37, Andrew Jones said:

No it's not really , too short , cockpit position wrong , also wing position and shape. A much better model will result from cross-kitting the Airfix Mk XII and Seafire XVII.

Andrew

 

my response

Quote

The SH kit gets a right dressing down from Andrew.

 

I've been doing some research/comparisons, with kits and plans trying to work out what's what.

 

Now, the general consensus is the new Airfix VB is the best so far regards shape and dimensions, being based on new research by Arthur Bentley.

 

I've had a compare with the Cooke plans, and Cox Mk I , and Spitfire the Canadians.

 

The SH kit while it owes much to the Tamiya kit.   

 

Looking at a Seafire III compared to the Airfix VB, if you align the cockpits, the nose is short by about 1mm, as is the tail, and the wing needs moving forward about 2mm, but the wing fillets on the fuselage are in the same place at the rear at least, meaning that shifting the wing forward is a reasonably simple job, of some trimming of the wing fillet and some shimming and trimming,and some filling.

 

the wings are under 1mm in difference, though the SH wing in the aileron area is about 1mm too short.

 

Comparing the new Airfix VB with a Tamiya I is interesting, line up the rear of the cockpit, and the rear fuselages line up exactly, panel lines, rudder hinge,

 

The shortness seems to be in the panel between the cockpit door and the fuel tank?

 

I can't find my contour comb, but a caliper at the front of the cockpit door gets 17mm on the Airfix VB and 18mm on the Tamiya I, SH Seafire III is 18mm too, so directly above the difference is noticeable...

.

I think I'm going mad, surrounded by bits of Spitfire trying to work out what lines up with what and how.

 

Later, I'll dig out an Airfix XII, Aeroclub XII and SH Seafire XV, and see how they compare....or maybe not tonight, but in the next few days...

 

I'd post up some pics but the camera batteries are knacked

 

I have some new ones on order.

 

One other thing, ages ago Edgar mentioned that Peter Cooke said there was an error in the rear fuselage of his highly rated Spitfire drawings, but not what the error was!

 

Compared to the Airfix kit, they are shorter by 1-1.5mm [by eye] the vertical panel line on the spine that cuts through the roundel is to far forward....

 

and

Quote

Feeling inspired i took a trek through the plastic jungle and dug out the Aeroclub XII and Airfix XII.

 

in short, the SH Seafire XV and Aeroclub XII are a reasonable match, the Airfix rear fuselage is a much worse match, even wiggling it about, the nose is too short, by about 1.5mm, the rear fuselage at the transport joint is 1.6mm deeper. This means that you can see a gap after the kit plastic wall thickness.

as the fuselage depth at the thinnest 'vertical' height is about 16.5mm Aeroclub and 18mm Airfix this is very noticable when seen side by side, in much thesame way the big Academy nose and Hasegawa fuselage are.

 

To summarise, you can get the SH Seafire XV and the Aeroclub XII to mostly agree, there are serious mismatches between the Aeroclub XII and the Airfix XII.

 

the nose does dip down a fraction too much, about 0.5mm, but the cowl line bulges up a bit behind, making this appear worse.

The rudder post is the right height for a XIV, but not a XII

Overall the Airfix XII fuselage is the worst of the lot. The Airfix XII wings is slightly broader in chord than the Tamiya and SH wing.

 

The Aeroclub XII is longer than the Cooke drawings, which if I'm right about the error, is correct.

 

much more on this, with photos on plans etc here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968126-148-airfix-seafire-xv/page-2#entry1756311

etc etc etc. With no response.

You damn the SH Seafire III kit, and then do some bizarre chop job on it.

On 9/10/2014 at 19:27, Andrew Jones said:

Much too complicated a solution to a simple problem , all you need to do is cut the fuselage as shown , this will automatically give the correct relationship between nose/ wing/ cockpit and address the length issue when rejoined with a 3mm spacer.

Andrew

 

as I have been pointing out, if the new Airfix Vb is as accurate as it is supposed to be, then this is wrong. This makes the cockpit in the wrong place

I posted this above, but just for comparsion sake

this is the Special Hobby Seafire III, dark grey, the light grey is the Airfix Vb.

 

There is a 1mm splice in the SH fuselage, and a block 1.68mm square rod at the leading edge, needs filing to shape, the orange at the rear of SH fuselage fillet shows where it needs trimming, the orange pencil tip show how the Airfix fuselage now lines up with the trailing edge of the SH wing, which is an excellent match for the Airfix.

Needs a little rescribing at the leading edge/cowl join.

There you go, wing moved, fuselage right length at front. This was just done to demonstrate the basic idea it's actually quite simple.

 

I have now chopped off the tail, and noticed the rudder is a bit thick at the bottom, but comparing the Airfix Vb rudder to this image

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/supermarine_spitfire_mk1a_p9444/images/supermarine_spitfire_mk1a_p9444_16_of_37.jpg

The Airfix rudder looks too thin at the base, looking at SH, ICM, Airfix and Eduard, the closest is the Eduard rudder.

The wheel wells are slightly ovoid, but then so are the Eduard uber kits.

 

Anyway, correcting the SH Seafire III is still going to be the easiest way to make a Seafire III, or II for that matter, as the base kits have all the bits needed.

 

Yes, you can combine the Airfix Vb with the Airfix XVII wing (which, don't forget, has the Tamiya/Occidental too broad at central chord issue, slap the Airfix Vb wing over the XVII wing if you don't believe me, I just did, and it's 1 mm wider on the front and rear. Yes, it can be corrected, but that SH wing wing is much better match.

 

Happy to be shown where I'm wrong with proof, corrections are always welcome.

 

dinner calls

 

[Adam Maas]

Is a Donner kit similar to a donner kebab? Or do you actually mean donor? If you're going to come across as a condescending smarta**e, at least learn to spell.

Anyway I thought it would be 1/48 but it's best not to assume, as we all know the saying about assumption.

I would also suggest just getting the Special Hobby kit (and either accept any faults or correct them) unless you have already got the 2 Airfix kits and don't want to make them as intended. It certainly would be cheaper just buying the 1 kit rather than 2 kits!

thanks

Mike

Remember, there's two wings in the XVII kit, so while you need to buy two kits to do the conversion, you do get two models out of the purchase (a XVII and a III) plus leftover bits

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

It's still cheaper and easier if the goal is to make a Seafire III, just to buy the Special Hobby kit though. I still don't see the point in buying 2 kits to make 1 model, regardless of the left over parts, it's just more work than you need to do.

thanks

Mike

[Andrew Jones]

The original poster asks the question , is it possible ?, by answering I did not expect to recieve the vitriolic level of attack experienced above, I have shown that this marriage is possible, which is what was asked.

Troy Smith has attacked my method for correcting the SH fuselage and has then shown a method that achieves possibly the same result, but with a much less elegant solution . needing the wings moving and blocks inserting at the leading edges. My method if anyone else would care to try it automatically corrects the wing position with the fuselage mods , no further fiddling with the wings being nescessary.

It would appear Gaston Marty has returned, all that is needed on Troy's photos are a few red lines , when a member asks a simple question and I try to help with a reply, I do not expect to be trolled is this manner.

Andrew

[Troy Smith]

well Andrew,

a few points that need to be addressed.

Having seen your finished models you are a very skilled modeller,

eg - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234961102-148-airfix-supermarine-type-356-spitfire-f-mk-21-painting-started;-pre-shading/page-4#entry1676808

but you seem to have some problems with what is actually accurate regarding various Spitfire/Seafire kits.

The original poster asks the question , is it possible ?, by answering I did not expect to recieve the vitriolic level of attack experienced above, I have shown that this marriage is possible, which is what was asked.Troy Smith has attacked my method for correcting the SH fuselage and has then shown a method that achieves possibly the same result, but with a much less elegant solution . needing the wings moving and blocks inserting at the leading edges. My method if anyone else would care to try it automatically corrects the wing position with the fuselage mods , no further fiddling with the wings being nescessary.

But this is WRONG. Your method makes the SH kit longer, but in the WRONG PLACES.

What you do actually creates errors, as you change the cockpit and wing flllet relationship, which is correct as it is, by moving the cockpit back 3mm towards the tail.

If you are after accuracy, you do not improve it.

As my photos show, which is the new Airfix VB taped to the SH Seafire III, the SH kit needs a insert around the fuel tank, and at the rear transport joint to match the Airfix fuselage, and the wing does need to come forward, to be in the right place on the cowling, and for the trailing edge to be in the correct place, and the fillet where it meets the wing trailing edge needs trimming.

As I stated in one of the linked threads, this is based on consulting reputable drawings (Cooke, Cox, Clint) and the new Airfix kit, based on unpublished Arthur Bentley drawings, and regarded as one of the best shaped 1/48th Spitfire so far.

I have described my methodology, and my sources and reasoning, and in doing so, my critique of your 'solution'

You have not provided this.

It would appear Gaston Marty has returned, all that is needed on Troy's photos are a few red lines ,

But one of my photos does have red lines!

Gaston is famed for his "solutions", which are cumbersome, destroy detail and are not well thought out. If anyone is doing 'a Gaston' it's you.

This is also the first response you have made, much of what I posted above was in the two other threads I linked, to which you did not respond.

I am quite happy to PROVED wrong, and interestingly no other members have pointed out any flaws in what I have posted.

Finally

when a member asks a simple question and I try to help with a reply, I do not expect to be trolled is this manner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]

This is a public forum, discussing modelling and models. The only 'inflammatory' thing I have done is question your comments on various models, their faults and possible ways to correct them.

I am sorry if you feel this is trolling, I take it as robust discussion.

[NPL]

It is obvious that if the SH Seafire has the correct length, and I have still to make my own measurements, then Troy is right. No escape from this conclusion.

The sad thing is the SH has also a Mk.XII which probably incorporates the same mistakes as their Seafires.

So what we probably need will be articles dealing with the misalignment of the wings. Or links to such articles.

[gingerbob]

What you do actually creates errors, as you change the cockpit and wing flllet relationship, which is correct as it is, by moving the cockpit back 3mm towards the tail.

[Later:]

...the SH kit needs a insert around the fuel tank, and at the rear transport joint to match the Airfix fuselage, and the wing does need to come forward, to be in the right place on the cowling, and for the trailing edge to be in the correct place, and the fillet where it meets the wing trailing edge needs trimming.

Troy, I haven't looked back to try to decipher this, but on the surface these two statements seem to contradict each other. How can the cockpit and wing fillet relationship be right as is, if you need to move the wing (and presumably not cockpit) forward? Also, wouldn't adding an insert around the fuel tank add length forward, which is essentially the same thing as moving the cockpit back? (well no, not if you consider the length to tail)

I guess I need to go back and study the recipe, and/or get out SH kits and have a good study. I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole! (at least not for the time being...)

bob

Edited July 14, 2015 by gingerbob

[Troy Smith]

Hi bob

what I mean by 'cockpit to wing fillet' is the distance to the rear end of the fillet from the cockpit.

It easier if you tape the Airfix to SH fuselage, aligning cockpit cut outs, and the flip over, the rear of the fillets line up on the underside. This what I man by 'cockpit to fillet' relationship.

The wing is only moved forward by the small extension in the fuel tank. Right, this needs a photo to illustrate, which I shall take now.

the rear plastic strip is at the rear of the fillet.

If you cut as Andrew has the cockpit is then 3mm further back compared to this.

The actual cut point would ideally be at the panel line of fuel tank/cockpit, but this would create problems rejoining the fuselage.

from below, in an attempt to show the alignment, and why a small block at the leading edge is needed. Note how the Airfix and SH are now aligned in wing position, and I have carved the SH wing fillet back a bit.

[Andrew Jones]

No kit is 100% accurate and no modification will be 100% accurate , the best we can hope for is a compromise. My modification to the SH Seafire is just that , a compromise to get the best result with the materials availible . The SH kit is correct in the distance from the nose to the leading edge of the wing , the distance from the seat mounting frame to the tail is also close to being correct, however, the overall length is approx 3mm too short and the trailing edge of the wing is 3mm too far back . The trailing edge should line up with the seat frame , { it being mounted to it }.

The "Bizarre chop job" as you call it , cures these deficencies without interfering with the wing mounting , it does not move the cockpit closer to the tail , this relatioship is unaffected, I have never claimed 100% accuracy, but it is an improvement on the kit and is much easier that the "botch" recommended by Troy. As for his fixation with the position of the wing fillet , I would point out that these were only light metal fairings and not structural so would they have all been identical or show variations ?

I would also like to ask why Troy recommends the SH kit over the Airfix conversion inquired about by the original poster , when he admits that the SH kit is flawed and needs a lot of modifications to fix.

This is my modified SH Seafire III , and it still looks like a Seafire.

Andrew

Edited July 16, 2015 by Andrew Jones