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KiwiRho

Vickers Viscount nose...

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Greetings All

Not a rant, I assure you, but the very least, if I'm going to make a model airliner in 1/144 scale I want at least some degree of reality in terms of its shape. No doubt you are the same. So then, I for one really appreciate the Britmodeller threads and discussions related to correcting this and that (hell, I even went so far as obtaining surgery replacement resin engines, tail and nose sections from Hannants for the Minicraft 757 recently because of the large number of 'scathing' reviews I read on Britmodeller on that poor kit- see, you guys do have real influence over other people far away - it's like voodoo doll stuff! Haha!).

Anyway, my old Welsh Models 806 (Cambrian) Viscount sitting glued up in the 'to do hangar' has a very early flat rounded 'bubble nose' ie. http://www.welshmodels.co.uk/VMC1.html- and the S&M kit I procured yesterday is almost exactly the same 'bubble nose' - purchased sight unseen so my fault.

I wish to produce Viscounts that have something shaped as seen below: I have the kits and decals waiting but neither has the right nose...

http://www.airliners.net/photo/NAC---New/Vickers-807-Viscount/2652802/L/&sid=07a67274209d4de1e6a681c0da9dca7e

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Rhodesia/Vickers-754D-Viscount/0770333/L/&sid=9fd64494a158f93e4b77f98ed76b7099

And, yes, I have seen the 812 Welsh kit. Also, I know the F-RSIN kit comes with a choice of alternate injection moulded sprue mounted noses, and of course the Authentic Airliners kit comes with two hard resin fuselage sections with even better more accurate looking noses. (we won't discuss the prices other than to say I do not not necessarily want to buy another kit just for its nose!).

Barring purchasing more kits, I just want to know if anyone has re-modelled their Welsh or S&M Viscounts with more pointed noses and how did they achieve a good / satisfactory result. Can anyone suggest a thread here or elsewhere on how? I would be most grateful - thanks

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Years ago I re-modelled the S&M kit nose by the tried and trusted method of building it up with Milliput and sanding it to match photographs, a practical application of my philosophy that if a model looks right it's unlikely to be far wrong. Unfortunately the model no longer exists otherwise I'd post a photograph. It wasn't a difficult exercise and the same technique can be used on the Airfix Vanguard and BAC 1-11 neither of which accurately represents the nose shape of the real aircraft.

If you don't have access to Milliput there are other materials which can be used, for example car body filler, but make sure it's something that won't shrink. Ordinary modelling filler is probably better avoided

Edited by Skodadriver

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Am redoing my Air Rhodesia Viscount as we speak. ( Too noble a subject to be depicted by a less than perfect kit. ) ( Oh, did I say that out loud?) Anyway, The S&M kit was the only option in 1/144 for a while. ( I have done the Welsh one too, but also a rounded nose ). Now I an redoing my Air Rhodesia and SAA Viscounts with the F-RSIN kit - a much nicer, sharper, finish in my book. The F-RSIN comes with individual prop blades, which mostly snapped as I was wrestling them off the sprue, but I got some AeroClub white metal ones to finish these up.

F-RSIN ( not yet completed ) on left, S&M ( quite some years old now ) on the right

nose_zpsdowsfutn.jpg

Got some Malaysian transfers to salvage the soon to be ex-Air Rhodesia plane. Have not tried to sculpt a new nose on any airliner yet, but why not I find I'm asking myself now.

Cheers,

Mike

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Unfortunately, the S&M kit has the nose based on an Electra mainly, I think, because it took it's DNA from the old Frog kit. The V807 should have the same nose as the Cambrian/Northeast/BEA etc. V802/806 series. All the Viscounts were the same up to the forward nose pressure bulkhead with just the radar accomodation being fettled to house the larger U.S. built scanner systems. This means that all you have to do is change that forward shape.

Nige B

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Am redoing my Air Rhodesia Viscount as we speak. ( Too noble a subject to be depicted by a less than perfect kit. ) ( Oh, did I say that out loud?) Anyway, The S&M kit was the only option in 1/144 for a while. ( I have done the Welsh one too, but also a rounded nose ). Now I an redoing my Air Rhodesia and SAA Viscounts with the F-RSIN kit - a much nicer, sharper, finish in my book. The F-RSIN comes with individual prop blades, which mostly snapped as I was wrestling them off the sprue, but I got some AeroClub white metal ones to finish these up.

F-RSIN ( not yet completed ) on left, S&M ( quite some years old now ) on the right

nose_zpsdowsfutn.jpg

Got some Malaysian transfers to salvage the soon to be ex-Air Rhodesia plane. Have not tried to sculpt a new nose on any airliner yet, but why not I find I'm asking myself now.

Cheers,

Mike

Thanks - again, Mike

You have repeatedly trail-blazed where I have yet to travel but wish to. Good on you - more tips gained and appreciated.

Cheers!

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Years ago I re-modelled the S&M kit nose by the tried and trusted method of building it up with Milliput and sanding it to match photographs, a practical application of my philosophy that if a model looks right it's unlikely to be far wrong. Unfortunately the model no longer exists otherwise I'd post a photograph. It wasn't a difficult exercise and the same technique can be used on the Airfix Vanguard and BAC 1-11 neither of which accurately represents the nose shape of the real aircraft.

If you don't have access to Milliput there are other materials which can be used, for example car body filler, but make sure it's something that won't shrink. Ordinary modelling filler is probably better avoided

Might be Milliput experimentation time then. Quite exciting - as odd as that sounds - I like a challenge.

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^ I know what you mean. I've got an S&M Viscount waiting for just that type of correction. I haven't yet got round to it but it will be quite interesting to do.

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KiwiRho, there were three Viscount noses:

1. The radarless, rounded one --

http://www.dhc-2.com/G-AOHH_Viscout_Nose_EGPF_1280.jpg

http://www.findmodelkit.com/sites/default/files/viscount_instr_str1small.jpg

2. The 745D-onwards radar one (a "thimble" grafted onto the original nose, with complex fillets, deicers, and extra skinning) --

http://img.planespotters.net/photo/109000/original/G-CSZB-British-Air-Ferries-Vickers-Viscount-800_PlanespottersNet_109783.jpg,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Vickers_Viscount_-_8967302679.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Vickers_Viscount_nose_and_engine.JPG

3. The neat and compact radar one originally retrofitted to BEA 700s (a flattish cone) and then factory-fitted to all BEA (and successor, notably BKS/British Air Services) 800s --

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/BEA.Vickers_Viscount.Duxford.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Vickers_Viscount_806_G-AOYN_G-OPAS_c-n_263_nose.jpg

I'm afraid I don't have dimensional data on how far noses 2 and 3 projected ahead of 1.

Kits tend to represent of the least common radarless nose (1) because Vickers issued a rather neat modelmakers' drawing of the Viscount in the early 1950s and, in the nature of those things, it got taken as Holy Scripture and reproduced ever since.

The pictures you sent links to are all of the "thimble" nose (2), which is the most common of the three. Attempting to model it with filler (even an expoxy filler like Miliput) might give rise to adhesion, integrity and shrinkage problems due to the relatively great area of plastic covered by the filler and the relatively great amount of filler needed. I haven't tackled this myself, but it might make more sense to 1. cut off the nosecap; 2. insert a sheet of flat plastic in its place; 3. cement the nosecap onto the sheet of flat plastic; 4. file and sand the nosecone down to the desired shape using photo references.

The pointed BEA nose (type 3) would be "doable" with filler due to the small area covered by it and the small amount needed.

Edited by skippiebg

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That's very useful information. Thanks for posting.

I have to say however that when I did my S&M Viscount a few years back the nose may not have been 100% accurate but I had no problem with either adhesion or shrinkage. The same goes for the various Airfix Vanguards and 1-11s I've built too. As a matter of course I always score the plastic where the Milliput will go, the same idea as a bricklayer scoring the cement before rendering a wall except a bit smaller! I have never known Milliput itself to shrink. Any "shrinkage" problems are much more likely to be due to what is below the Milliput, e.g. a seam which sags or something like that. Still, it all comes back to a point I've made several time before - there is no right way and no wrong way, only what works for you and what doesn't.

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It was a Miliput rebuild for me too KiwiRho (and my very first post on Britmodeller to boot !):

2.jpg

I also used the S&M kit, cut the fuselage down to 700 series length, and added the radar nose from MIlliput. It really wasn't as hard as you may think, so I'd really suggest you give it a go.

(Link to my original post : VP-YNC for a couple of other pics)

mike

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Mitchem and Skodadriver, I'd have a go at using Milliput, but I'd be nervous when shaping it with files and sandpaper afterwards. I've had bad experiences of lots of it coming off, despite being "keyed-in" as suggested. Any other filler -- nah...

Mitchem, I also remember the Air Rhodesia Viscount shoot-downs with sadness.

---

Another thing to remembver with Viscount 800s is that some (of the last 810 Series incarnation, and then only with more powerful Darts) had assymetrical tailplanes: http://s258.photobucket.com/user/jh5speed/media/G-BMAT.jpg.html.

Edited by skippiebg

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Thanks again. That was something I never knew.

You wouldn't consider writing "The Definitive Guide to the Vickers Viscount" would you? :winkgrin:

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Interesting thread, I hadn;t realised there were three noses.

 

One alternative to Milliput is Mr Hobby P120 two part epoxy, it adheres to the plastic much more than Milliput and can be sanded and feathered.

 

I'm planning to use it to make a radar nose for my S&M S.800, using an oyumaru mould and the radar nose from the F-Rsin kit. MIght not be 100% accurate but it should look better

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Still think Airfix would make a killing if they re did their Skyking range etc ...

 

Keith

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3 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

I'm planning to ... make a radar nose for my S&M S.800 ... using ... the radar nose from the F-Rsin kit. MIght not be 100% accurate but it should look better

The Viscount is F-RSIN's best-shaped kit and the nose is brilliant.

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As a general aside I've found the best thing when using large chunks of Milliput is to mould it all in place where you want it, and then deliberately pull it off, and fix it back into place with cyanoacrylate or epoxy. It won;t come off again after that.

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On 14/11/2019 at 01:14, Britman said:

Still think Airfix would make a killing if they re did their Skyking range etc ...

 

Keith

 

I very much doubt it.

 

Tommo.

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I went to a talk by Airfix five or six years ago and they were asked about their plans regarding their 1/144 scale airliner range. The answer was that they had no plans to produce any new kits as they felt that this market was pretty well catered for by the likes of Revell, Roden, Zvezda etc.

They would release old airliner models as and when they felt the time was right. As a result quite a few of the old Skykings range has appeared in their red-boxes - such as the 707, Comet, Vanguard etc.

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18 hours ago, Britman said:

Why?

 

Keith

 

Because the newest Skying kit is 40 years old and it is a niche field that is very well catered for by other low volume producers.  Airfix's 50 to 60 year old kits can't compete with what is out there in quality at the low volumes that sate the market.

 

Futhermore, the odd repops Airfix have done still hang around like a bad smell (Comet and 707) and even those that have not been repopped are still available on the secondhand market, if one does want to pop a pang of nostalgia.

 

Tommo.

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid

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Tommo , you misunderstood me. I have a wish for Airfix to update these subjects as in Swordfish , Wellington etc. As much as it is unlikely a new tool Vanguard ,BAC 111 ,Comet. With Airfix's new quality and methods it would be nice.

 

Keith

Edited by Britman
Spelling

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9 hours ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

 

Because the newest Skying kit is 40 years old and it is a niche field that is very well catered for by other low volume producers.  Airfix's 50 to 60 year old kits can't compete with what is out there in quality at the low volumes that sate the market.

 

Futhermore, the odd repops Airfix have done still hang around like a bad smell (Comet and 707) and even those that have not been repopped are still available on the secondhand market, if one does want to pop a pang of nostalgia.

 

Tommo.

We're getting pretty far off the topic of Viscount noses but I respectfully suggest that you are being unfair to the Airfix range. Despite their age some of the old Airfix kits are basically accurate and capable of producing a very good model not just "a pang of nostalgia". Most of us will have seen the wonders @Viking has worked on the Airfix Boeing 737 and the BAC 1-11. Even I managed to make a presentable model from the Airfix Caravelle. I have an Airfix DC-9 on the bench just now and it is far superior to the much more recent FLY/AZ/TwoSix kit which I hated the only time I built it. Don't take my word for it - check out DC-9 authority Jodie Peeler here. It's also a lot easier to make an accurate Boeing 727-200 from the Airfix kit than the more recent Minicraft one. Yes the Airfix kits need work and in some cases correction but surely that's what modelling (as opposed to kit assembling) is about? I only speak for myself but I am very glad that so many Airfix airliners continue to be available.

 

Dave G

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I'm not saying for a second that examples of the Airfix Skyking back catalogue can't be turned into great models, they can. However, it takes work,  but that is an entirely a different question.

 

However, I was answering the question why Airfix are not mining this seam by re-issuing their back catalogue - simply it does not make them money and Airfix obviously believe that can't compete  with the companies that do operate in that market and it is reflected in their business model. Its been 40 years since Airfix have manufactured a new 1/144 airliner kit and in that time they have also not be profligate in re-issuing kits in the former Skyking range. So it clearly won't make them a 'killing' or they would have done it.

 

I'm surprised Airfix has not sold off their airliner moulds ala the railway kits.

 

Tommo.

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid

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5 hours ago, Britman said:

Tommo , you misunderstood me. I have a wish for Airfix to update these subjects as in Swordfish , Wellington etc. As much as it is unlikely a new tool Vanguard ,BAC 111 ,Comet. With Airfix's new quality and methods it would be nice.

 

Keith

 

Keith, 

 

I understood you fully. I was referring to them repoping their existing holdings, not new/revised kits.

 

Tommo

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If your going to put any epoxy/Milliput onto an aircraft nose, may I suggest drilling a couple of holes in the nose first?  When you apply the epoxy, squeeze it hard onto the nose and the epoxy leeches through those holes and adheres to the inside of those holes and makes a very secure footing for the epoxy bind onto

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