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LDSModeller

87 Squadron Hurricane P3215

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Hi All,

The Battle of Britain Groupbuild is a mere few weeks away, and I have decided on building a Hurricane flown by a New Zealander, a one Squadron Leader Terence G Lovell-Gregg, incumbent OC of 87 Squadron, KIA 15.08.1940.

Lovell's aircraft on the day was P3215, Codes KL-???

The 1/24 Airfix Kit has part of the main code, but I need to find the final letter.

After much searching/reading I have come up empty handed as to what the final code letter may be.

Hence my post to Britmodeller Brain Trust, in the hope that someone may know and /or point me in the right direction if you would please?

Many thanks/regards

Alan

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Hi Alan

I don't know how much information he has but it might be worth sending a PM to Airgunner re his post here... perhaps you could pool your resources and exchange what information you do find.

The 87 Squadron code for the time was AL, you mistyped?

Cheers,

Stew

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Hiya Alan & Stew,

87 Sqn Hurricane`s wore the squadron codes LK.

All I can find out so far is that P3215 was shot down near Portland on 15th August 1940 whilse serving with 87 Sqn,......so not much more than you already know.

It may be worth checking the PRO Kew website and seeing if the 87 Sqn ORB is available to view on line (some are,....some aren`t!). It might just list the code letter of P3215,........ some ORB`s do list things like this and some don`t but it is definitely worth a try.

Cheers

Tony

PS- Parts of P3215 are currently for sale on e bay!

https://uk.storeslider.com/group-of-relics-raf-hurricane-p3215-sqd-leader-361257888541e.html

PPS- Sorry,...they were for sale,...sold April! The sales splurge included this;

RAF Hurricane P3215

This hurricane of 87 Squadron 10 group the pilot Squadron leader Terence Gunion Lovell Gregg aged 27 he was shot down on 15th August 1940 the plane was on a sortie Intercepting an incoming raid on Portland, Dorset.

No 87 squadron was scrambled at 1730 hrs to intercept forty Ju87 stuka dive bombers, escorted by twenty Messerschmitt Me110’s and sixty Messerschmitt bf109’s. Lovell-Gregg led the squadron out of the sun in line-astern, straight at the ME 110’s. His Hurricane was hit and caught fire. He came down from 15000 feet, apparently under control and heading for Warmwell. Eye-witnesses said that the pilot appeared to change his mind and he circled the Abbotsbury area, skimmed low across a wood and a ploughed field and crashed in a copse, striking a large oak tree. Lovell-Gregg was thrown clear but was already dead when reached.He is buried in Holy Trinity churchyard, Warmwell.

Lovell-Gregg-portrait3-opt.jpg

Lovell-Gregg-grave1-opt.jpg

Here is the link for the 87 Sqn ORB at Kew,......you have to pay a small fee to download it.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8455025

Cheers

Tony

Edited by tonyot

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Hi Stew & Tony,

Thank you both for replying to my querie.

I knew the main code had the letters K & L, and was determined to get it right when I posted, and still got it wrong :doh: how embarressing :confused:

I will try the Kew Website, and see what the 87 Squadron ORB for August 15/40 has for SL Lovell-Gregg's aircraft, If I do find the missing code letter, quite happy to share it with Airgunner or anyone else interested.

One thing I have not been able to ascertain is if SL Lovell-Gregg was credited with any kills while with 87 Squadron. One thing for certain is though, he would have had the Squadron Leaders Pennant on his aircraft :)

Thanks again

Regards

Alan

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No worries Alan,

Good luck with the Kew website. He would only have the Sqn Ldrs pennant on his aircraft if it was his `usual' aircraft.

Many CO`s chose to use the individual code `A' for their `usual' aircraft however some chose their initial and others just chose whichever aircraft was available. However `LK-A' was flown by Ian `Widge' Gleed who was a flight commander and it bore his Figaro cat marking.

Cheers

Tony

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No worries Alan,

Good luck with the Kew website. He would only have the Sqn Ldrs pennant on his aircraft if it was his `usual' aircraft.

Many CO`s chose to use the individual code `A' for their `usual' aircraft however some chose their initial and others just chose whichever aircraft was available. However `LK-A' was flown by Ian `Widge' Gleed who was a flight commander and it bore his Figaro cat marking.

Cheers

Tony

Ah yes, about the "usual aircraft", I recall reading only some few days ago, comments from another Kiwi BoB Pilot who made mention that with August 1940 the days of individual aircraft were gone. I'm guessing that rank has it's privilages for that, but wouldn't nessecarily guarantee it absolute, as you mention "what ever aircraft was available" could have been the choice on any given day for S/L Lovell-Gregg.

I didn't know that about CO's and the letter "A" for their aircraft, - thanks for that piece of information, it would interesting if I can find the last letter and whether it might be "T" or a "G" :D

Thanks/regards

Alan

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Hiya Alan,

There is a Hurricane coded G which appears in a photo taken during the summer of 1940 (it has its tail propped up, has a large fuselage roundel like Gleeds LK-A and is without under wing roundels, often dated as September 1940,...my copy is on pg 56 of SAM`s Battle of Britain Camo & Markings monograph No.2) but this one wears the serial P2829, LK-G. I would guess from its markings that it had been with the unit throughout the Battle of Britain,...however this aeroplane is listed by Air Britain as only serving with 55 OCU until it was converted to a Mk.II.

Cheers

Tony

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I knew the main code had the letters K & L, and was determined to get it right when I posted, and still got it wrong :doh: how embarressing :confused:...

If it's any consolation Alan, I knew it as well and then I typed it wrong too... :blush:

Tony - thanks B)

Cheers,

Stew

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Sorry, but, like so many, the ORB does not give individual codes; I've no idea of its significance (if any,) but Lovell-Gregg, on more than one occasion, flew with "B" Flight.

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Sorry, but, like so many, the ORB does not give individual codes; I've no idea of its significance (if any,) but Lovell-Gregg, on more than one occasion, flew with "B" Flight.

Edgar,

Thank you so very much for this information, especially about the ORB not having the individual code.

In thinking about B Flight, and thinking of Tony's comment above, about squadron CO's flying the aircraft with the letter "A" (15 August was Flt Lt Gleed in LK-A who was not the CO then) would it be possible that the lead aircraft for B flight, Lovell Gregg was flying, may be LK-B? Or am I way off?

Not with standing any possible answer to my last query, many thanks again Edgar

Regards

Alan

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In the system you have in mind, I'd consider it more logic that the leading a/c of B Flt. would be G, working on the basis of nominally 12 a/c per Squadron and 6 per Flight (or was a Flt only four ?), without allowance for spares. But then I don't think such a system would have been maintainable without frequent repainting of code letters.

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Not G but M: B Flight generally used the second part of the alphabet. Obviously this reduces the amount of recoding required to a minimum.

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Edgar,

Thank you so very much for this information, especially about the ORB not having the individual code.

In thinking about B Flight, and thinking of Tony's comment above, about squadron CO's flying the aircraft with the letter "A" (15 August was Flt Lt Gleed in LK-A who was not the CO then) would it be possible that the lead aircraft for B flight, Lovell Gregg was flying, may be LK-B? Or am I way off?

Not with standing any possible answer to my last query, many thanks again Edgar

Regards

Alan

Hi Alan,

I have done a fair bit of research now on Lovell-Gregg now, and it appears when he flew, as Edgar say, he led the squadron from B Flight. I know of several B flight Hurricanes codes it isn't, T, M and V are all in photos I've found that have different serials. As Edgar also mentions, the ORB rarely records the individual letter of aircraft, but in some there are comments left by whoever was filling it out. An example is 93 squadrons, which is a veritable goldmine. I am going up to Kew next week for a read of the ORB so I will happily share what I find.

As an aside, Lovell-Gregg was shot down on his first combat sortie.

Edited by Airgunner

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Airgunner,

Thanks for the additional information - I would be quite interested too, in what you might find -thank you for the offer, much appreciated.

As I did some reading on Lovell-Gregg, I came to the conclusion that he hadn't flown that many, if any sorties with 87 Squadron operationally, and your mention of 1 fits the bill.

Interestingly enough he had quite the RAF career flying Wapiti's and a conversion on float planes, but it appeared to me that he didn't really get much in the way of squadron command experience.

I had a long think about Tony's comment about the OC (generally) flying the squadron aircraft with the letter A. It wasn't till I read that Lovell-Gregg was attached to 87 Squadron as a "supernumerary", and after the incumbant OC left, Lovell -Gregg was given command. Flying B section as you and Edgar posted, was to help him gain experience, and explains to me anyway why Ian Gleed was flying aircraft A.

Thanks/regards

Alan

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Nothing to add but what an interesting thread, thanks Alan for raising it & eveyone else for the info contributed, A few weeks ago I'd not heard of Terence Gunion Lovell-Gregg. Now, he has become another Kiwi I feel involved with. Thanks all & Britmodeller for the opportunity.

Steve.

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Nothing to add but what an interesting thread, thanks Alan for raising it & eveyone else for the info contributed, A few weeks ago I'd not heard of Terence Gunion Lovell-Gregg. Now, he has become another Kiwi I feel involved with. Thanks all & Britmodeller for the opportunity.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

I feel the same way about finding these Kiwi's that are not well known (if known) generally at all.

While looking into 87 Squadron, I came across another Kiwi.

His name was Flt/Lt Derek Harland Ward originally from Whangarei (pronounced phonetically "Fong-a- ray (or Fuung-a -ray).

He ended up with 87 Squadron in France, though originally with 151 Squadron. He ended up staying with 87 Squadron and appointed "B" Section flight commander, see history here

http://www.bbm.org.uk/WardDH.htm

WardDH-portrait2-opt.jpg

What's of interest is that the "Coat of Arms" in the photo in above actually (from what I have read), belonged to one P/O JRCock.

P/OCock's aircraft from what I can find was LK-M (P3394).

It appears (to me) that Ft/Lt Ward also flew the same aircraft which fits in with Grahams comments above about "M" being the B section leaders aircraft. See link below post #11

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?94924-Spitfire-girls

Ward survived the Battle of Britain and was KIA in Egypt 1942.

If I can't go with Lovell-Gregg's aircraft, I can look at Wards.

Regards

Alan

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Hi Alan,

I remember seeing a closer picture of that badge in an old magazine in an article on RAF and Luftwaffe personal markings... but I can't remember which magazine - this was years ago anyway. I do remember that it was a quartered shield showing (l-r top row) a broken mirror, three cigarettes being lit off one match. (l-r bottom row) a man walking under a ladder and the number thirteen. Below the shield was a scroll with the motif: "So what the hell!"

Cheers,

Stew

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Hi Alan,

I remember seeing a closer picture of that badge in an old magazine in an article on RAF and Luftwaffe personal markings... but I can't remember which magazine - this was years ago anyway. I do remember that it was a quartered shield showing (l-r top row) a broken mirror, three cigarettes being lit off one match. (l-r bottom row) a man walking under a ladder and the number thirteen. Below the shield was a scroll with the motif: "So what the hell!"

Cheers,

Stew

Thanks for that Stew.

P/O JR Cock was an Australian in the RAF and from what I have read, scored the first aerial kill by an Australian in WWII.

He had the misfortune of being shot down by Helmut Wick in Hurricane LK-V (?) V7233, August 11/1940. He survived the encounter. In 1983 his aircraft was later recovered (or parts thereof) and now resides at Tangmere Aviation Museum.

http://www.aviationarchaeology.co.uk/AA/ex10_Dig1940_Hurricane.html

It's so fascinating what you find out about not only these airmen, but also these aircraft they flew.

Thanks/regards

Alan

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