brewerjerry Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Hi All I came across this interesting link to photos of a B-17 in D-Day stripes http://www.aerovintage.com/23354-1.jpg http://www.aerovintage.com/23354-2.jpg story here, but you must scroll down the page to find it http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news10.htm It would make an interestingly different B-17F model cheers Jerry Edited June 13, 2015 by brewerjerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi I am trying to figure out the colours. presumably the dark area near the cockpit is shadow ? or is the upper surfaces two colours ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Onkey Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 An awful lot of fascinating info and stories on that link; I'll think of the time I just spent browsing it as 'invested in research'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperService Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi I am trying to figure out the colours. presumably the dark area near the cockpit is shadow ? or is the upper surfaces two colours ? cheers jerry It's a while since I last saw one but IIRC B-17s received dark green disruptive areas at some stage. I think I saw this first in a profile in Ian K Baker's Aviation History Colouring Book series. It's a fascinating image and story. Thank You for finding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 It's a while since I last saw one but IIRC B-17s received dark green disruptive areas at some stage. I think I saw this first in a profile in Ian K Baker's Aviation History Colouring Book series. It's a fascinating image and story. Thank You for finding it. Are you thinking of Medium Green? That was commonly used to break up the outline neat colour shot here Note the dark patch below the dorsal turret. The fading of the fabric control surface is also of note. Regarding the D-Day stripes, An interesting photo was culled out of the internet by Steve Birdsall recently, and we went to work trying to dig out some more stuff on this airplane. The raw image, somewhat lacking, is held by the Southern Utah University Archives, and shows a B-17 with what appear to be D-Day invasion stripes. We requested a higher resolution copy and Paula Mitchell, the university archivist, quickly sent a copy along. Yep, sure does look like invasion stripes on the wings, something you don't see too often. This airplane appears to be unarmed, save for a sole .50 in the left cheek window, and has the remnants of some tail markings. A closeup of the interesting area: So, Steve went to work and comes back with: This is 42-3354 , Big Stoop . Assigned to 353rd Bomb Squadron, 301st Bomb Group on July 13, 1943, then transferred to 97th Bomb Group after 21 missions. Sent "to Depot" June 26, 1944 and finally salvaged overseas November 30, 1945. Her tail markings are 97th from the period prior to March 1944, but Fifth Wing was very slow to change in most groups. We know this photo was taken well after that. I suspect the same aircraft, 42-3354, is shown in this series of official photos of General H. H. Arnold with Patton and Mark Clark at Castelvetrano airfield on Sicily. The 97th Bomb Group was called on to provide transport for the brass on other occasions, notably the Gibraltar meetings in November 1942. So maybe 42-3354 was performing a similar role as a VIP transport in the middle of 1944? the only aircraft excepted from the application of AEAF stripes were 4 engine bomber and seaplanes, but 4 engine bomber types in other roles, eg Halifax and Stirling glider tugs, did have them applied, so a VIP transport would fall into that category, hence the stripes. Very interesting find Jerry, thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Bleh, I get 'Forbidden' and also a 404 error on all those links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Bleh, I get 'Forbidden' and also a 404 error on all those links. Hi Pm me your email and i will send you the screenshots about the B-17 with stripes its odd on my ipad i get 404 error, on my iphone all is ok cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Bleh, I get 'Forbidden' and also a 404 error on all those links. Yes, same here but with a 403 error - I suspect the site has some problems. 403 Forbidden You don't have permission to access /23354-2.jpg on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. Apache/2.0.64 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.0.64 OpenSSL/0.9.8e-fips-rhel5 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635 mod_fcgid/2.3.6 Server at www.aerovintage.com Port 80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I was only able to look at the last link, but I think that included the photos directly linked to? The fading of the fabric control surface is also of note. Especially when you think about recent discussion of Hurris, right Troy? bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 I was only able to look at the last link, but I think that included the photos directly linked to? bob Hi Yeah thats right the photos are in the text cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) I cannot view the pics nor find them on the website but they do sound interesting. I have a small photo of an overall bare metal USAAF C-47 wearing D-Day stripes too, so maybe another VIP aircraft? Cheers Tony Edit- Aha,....found it! I`ve seen this aircraft before and I`m sure that I remember it being described as a unit hack used for target towing and wore the stripes on the wings for this purpose, possibly yellow and black?. If they were actual invasion stripes then it would have them on the rear fuselage too. Doesn`t it belong to a Mediterranean based unit too? I know that Med based PR Mossies wore invasion stripes to stop USAAF fighters from shooting at them (thinking they were Me 410`s) but I`m not aware of any other aircraft in the Med theatre wearing stripes apart from C-47`s & Dakota`s which had been moved from Europe and some of the British Hellcat`s which took part in the invasion of S. France. Edited June 15, 2015 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I cannot view the pics nor find them on the website but they do sound interesting. I 'quoted' them in post #5 Tony, and they are right down the linked page, and took me some looking to spot, which is why I quoted it. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperService Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Thanks for the correction. I was working from memory and we all know how reliable that can be sometimes This link supports Tony's information as the 97BG was a MTO unit by then. Still a cracking photo though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 I cannot view the pics nor find them on the website but they do sound interesting. I have a small photo of an overall bare metal USAAF C-47 wearing D-Day stripes too, so maybe another VIP aircraft? Cheers Tony Edit- Aha,....found it! I`ve seen this aircraft before and I`m sure that I remember it being described as a unit hack used for target towing and wore the stripes on the wings for this purpose, possibly yellow and black?. If they were actual invasion stripes then it would have them on the rear fuselage too. Doesn`t it belong to a Mediterranean based unit too? I know that Med based PR Mossies wore invasion stripes to stop USAAF fighters from shooting at them (thinking they were Me 410`s) but I`m not aware of any other aircraft in the Med theatre wearing stripes apart from C-47`s & Dakota`s which had been moved from Europe and some of the British Hellcat`s which took part in the invasion of S. France. Hi Interesting a TT aircraft yet carrying a .50 in the nose, maybe two ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Bleh, I get 'Forbidden' and also a 404 error on all those links. Hi You should have mail jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Hi Interesting a TT aircraft yet carrying a .50 in the nose, maybe two ? cheers jerry Yes but the upper turret has been deleted so it is doubtful that it was fully operational! Even so,...many second line aircraft were armed to a certain extetn which could explain any guns fitted in the nose and as a `unit hack' it might well have been used as a formation aircraft,....like those highly colourful ones used by the 8th AF in the UK? I`m going from memory from something which I read many years ago so please bear with me,.....I am trying to help after all! Cheers Tony This one has D-Day stripes mind you,....circa Sept 1944 when the wing stripes were being dropped; And look at this dark coloured (black?) B-17 with the huge J in a triangle,.....possibly another hack or formation aircraft? http://www.armyairforces.com/download.axd?file=0;242718 Edited June 17, 2015 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stein Meum Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Funny! I think the stripes are not D-Day stripes, but the markings applied to airplanes taking part in "Operation Starkey", i.e. black and white stripes with the outer part of the wings in black. However, as a multi-engined plane, the nose should be white. I've only seen RAF planes with these markings, among the Douglas Bostons often referred to as smoke-layers on D-Day. Which they were'nt. Stein Edited June 17, 2015 by Stein Meum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Funny! I think the stripes are not D-Day stripes, but the markings applied to airplanes taking part in "Operation Starkey", i.e. black and white stripes with the outer part of the wings in black. However, as a multi-engined plane, the nose should be white. I've only seen RAF planes with these markings, among the Douglas Bostons often referred to as smoke-layers on D-Day. Which they were'nt. Stein It couldn`t have been used in Op Starkey as this B-17 was based in the Med with the 15th AF! I think that I remember reading somewhere that the stripes could be green and white, yellow and black or something similar,.....but I cannot find the info to confirm this. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungo1974 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The stripes could be applied as a visual marker for radio relay/navigation motherships? It was common for a bomber to lead a group of fighters in long range navigation to get to areas of operations. If i recall there was a 381st Bomb Group B-17F that was used for these duties that had red/white stripes around the fuselage/tail fin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungo1974 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And look at this dark coloured (black?) B-17 with the huge J in a triangle,.....possibly another hack or formation aircraft? Yes she was known as "The Black B**ch" and was a assembly ship for the 351st Bomb Group at Polebrook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Funny! I think the stripes are not D-Day stripes, but the markings applied to airplanes taking part in "Operation Starkey", i.e. black and white stripes with the outer part of the wings in black. However, as a multi-engined plane, the nose should be white. I've only seen RAF planes with these markings, among the Douglas Bostons often referred to as smoke-layers on D-Day. Which they were'nt. Stein Hi Only starkey US units marked, would have been the four 8th Air Force B - 26 groups 322d BG , 323d BG , 386th BG , 387th BG, they flew ops escorted by spitfires. I havent seen any photos yet, but they were the only ones that would have had the starkey stripes, the B-17s flew to high on their ops. cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprue Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yes but the upper turret has been deleted so it is doubtful that it was fully operational! Even so,...many second line aircraft were armed to a certain extetn which could explain any guns fitted in the nose and as a `unit hack' it might well have been used as a formation aircraft,....like those highly colourful ones used by the 8th AF in the UK? I`m going from memory from something which I read many years ago so please bear with me,.....I am trying to help after all! Cheers Tony This one has D-Day stripes mind you,....circa Sept 1944 when the wing stripes were being dropped; And look at this dark coloured (black?) B-17 with the huge J in a triangle,.....possibly another hack or formation aircraft? http://www.armyairforces.com/download.axd?file=0;242718 Am I correct in thinking this aircraft is unarmed as the tail turret looks blanked off? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yes, it looks unarmed. Also, on the rear corner of the stripes, is that an RAF serial? (if not, what IS it?) bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I think it is an RAF serial, likely HB771. Joe Baugher has this machine as a Fortress III, a Lend-Lease B-17G-40, handed to the USAAF in the UK after delivery: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_5.html Edited June 17, 2015 by RJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Funny! I think the stripes are not D-Day stripes, but the markings applied to airplanes taking part in "Operation Starkey", i.e. black and white stripes with the outer part of the wings in black. However, as a multi-engined plane, the nose should be white. I've only seen RAF planes with these markings, among the Douglas Bostons often referred to as smoke-layers on D-Day. Which they were'nt. Stein Hi i just noticed what you mean about the outer wing panels being black, it is a little confusing now. Cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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