Invasion stripes question

[GordonD]

According to the instruction sheet for the Airfix C-47, D-Day invasion stripes were often applied roughly and unevenly. Fair enough; I've heard that before. But what about the national markings, which were apparently on top of the stripes? Were they reapplied afterwards or did the stripes stop short of them (and the squadron codes where appropriate)?

[Graham Boak]

The stripes were generally applied inboard of the national markings on the wings. I believe the painters of the stripes would paint around the national markings on the fuselage, time being too short to redo them. Squadron codes were re-applied if necessary, although serials often (generally? always?) were not - a bit aft on the Dakota to be affected, perhaps? On the tail of USAAF ones.

As for being applied roughly and unevenly - fair enough but consider what that would look like scaled down.

[JohnT]

I had the impression - though no doubt incorrectly - that the stripes were painted around the roundels and codes but often over the top of aircraft serials - sometimes in part. However I have seen photos of codes being partly covered over too - eg Spit XIV NH654 Code DL with the last part of the codes over-painted as well as part of the serial. There is a good picture in Osprey 81 Aircraft of the Aces - Griffon Spitfire Aces and I plan on a build of that machine - when I get the time ......................................

[Edgar]

The instructions were," Stripes will in no case be painted over national markings, which take precedence." Codes and serials are not mentioned.

[GordonD]

Thanks for those replies. I've already painted the stripes but the Stars & Bars markings on the rear fuselage appear to be painted on top of them as I said. It's only the one on the starboard side which will be affected because the port-side one will be hidden when the loading door is open!

[Chuck1945]

From a decal on model perspective, the national insignia decals would go over the stripes unless the builder was willing to do some careful masking. In reality however, the initial set of stripes were rather hurriedly applied over a rather short period just prior to D-Day., National markings were not covered. Some of these stripes looked quite ragged. As time permitted after D-Day and for new or repaired aircraft arriving after D-Day, the stripes were done or redone neatly.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Chuck1945

[Max Headroom]

I remember Edgar mentioning in another thread crthat not all stripes were roughly painted. Yes to those applied in a hurry overnight before D Day, but those arriving from MU's and manufacturers afterwards and which had time for proper application would be neater.

Trevor

[Stonar]

The instructions were," Stripes will in no case be painted over national markings, which take precedence." Codes and serials are not mentioned.

indeed, and earlier under the 'general' heading it is made clear that "These instructions [for the distinctive markings] are in no way intended to change the present US and British national markings now in use..."

Steve

[MikeC]

Even those applied in a hurry were often done with as much care and as neatly as possible within the the time constraints. As ever, it is impossible to give a definitive answer with a general rule - you need a photo of your subject. For example, some aircraft did have a border left round the national markings: I recall seeing a pic of an 8th AF Moquito PR XVI with such a border on the fuselage markings, but not on the wings.

And unless your subject had extremely ragged stripes, and you're working in a very large scale, ragged stripes on a model just look like bad modelling imo.

[Knight_Flyer]

I heard also that some invasion stripes were applied in a hurry. However, at 1/72 scale it's unlikely you'll see the ragged edges and would look relatively straight. I do agree with the others, best to find period photos of your subject to see how the scheme was actually painted.

[Giorgio N]

From a modeller perspective, there's one caveat when applying national markings over invasion stripes: if the national marking decals are not opaque enough, there's the risk of the stripes showing through. Personally I always mask the marking areas so that these are applied over the white only

[Seawinder]

From a modeller perspective, there's one caveat when applying national markings over invasion stripes: if the national marking decals are not opaque enough, there's the risk of the stripes showing through. Personally I always mask the marking areas so that these are applied over the white only

Agreed. The white-black demarcations will probably show through even with good quality decals. Always safer to mask for the insignia IMHO.

[grahamf]

Have a look at the Hawkertempest.se site if you search for the pictures of Kermit Weekes Tempest EJ693 under the survivors listing, you will see some clear colour shots of the fuselage in original wartime paint. Look at the D day stripes and you can see that they are painted around under the roundels and even have a tiny gap where they have cut in with a big brush.

[Ratch]

Personally, I like hastily applied stripes...

[JohnT]

Even those applied in a hurry were often done with as much care and as neatly as possible within the the time constraints. As ever, it is impossible to give a definitive answer with a general rule - you need a photo of your subject.

And unless your subject had extremely ragged stripes, and you're working in a very large scale, ragged stripes on a model just look like bad modelling imo.

Very much agree with Mike on both points. Would say much the same applies to panel lines too but that's for another thread elsewhere. I only mention for consistency in approach

[MikeC]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bottisham#/media/File:RAF_Bottisham_-_361st_Fighter_Group_-_P-51B_Mustangs_at_Bottisham.jpg

Check out the caption, particularly the date. I rest my case.

[Black Knight]

According to the instruction sheet for the Airfix C-47, D-Day invasion stripes were often applied roughly and unevenly. Fair enough; I've heard that before. But what about the national markings, which were apparently on top of the stripes? Were they reapplied afterwards or did the stripes stop short of them (and the squadron codes where appropriate)?

All this discussion about the stripes is NOT answering the OP question.

It appears that mostly; the codes and N.M. were painted around carefully. A water based distemper was mostly used and was wiped away from the markings if the paint got on them. In some instances I've seen the codes were painted over and then re-applied on the fuselage side in an area not so painted; eg under the cockpit on fighter, or on the extreme nose in the case of medium bombers and Dakotas.

[GordonD]

All this discussion about the stripes is NOT answering the OP question.

It appears that mostly; the codes and N.M. were painted around carefully. A water based distemper was mostly used and was wiped away from the markings if the paint got on them. In some instances I've seen the codes were painted over and then re-applied on the fuselage side in an area not so painted; eg under the cockpit on fighter, or on the extreme nose in the case of medium bombers and Dakotas.

No, I was quite happy with the answers I got. But the point about the distemper being water-based so it could be wiped off the markings is interesting.

[Edgar]

the distemper being water-based so it could be wiped off the markings is interesting.

Only if done immediately; once dry, it needed hot water to remove it.

[GordonD]

I did wonder, given that it was peeing down the night before D-Day.

[Stonar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bottisham#/media/File:RAF_Bottisham_-_361st_Fighter_Group_-_P-51B_Mustangs_at_Bottisham.jpg

Check out the caption, particularly the date. I rest my case.

There are just as many less than perfect distinctive markings to be seen too. You can make a case either way. I do agree that you need to be careful attempting to represent stripes that are less than perfect at full size on a scale model.

These were taken on or around D-Day:

There are plenty more which must have been taken around the same time:

I could go on, and I could post some nice neat ones too. There is indeed no substitute for a decent image.

Cheers

Steve

[MikeC]

^^ Fine: now try and imagine them scaled down to 1:48 or smaller - most of the imperfections there would be difficult to spot. My point was and is that it is a myth that all stripes painted on D-Day were extremely ragged and scruffy. Many were not. As ever check references and remember scale effect.

[Finn]

Here is a Spitfire getting the stripes:

http://www.stolly.org.uk/ETO/spitfireixinvasionstripes.jpg

Jari

[MikeC]

^^ Wish I had a pound for every time someone has posted that photo. IIRC it's posed, I can't find the thread but I'm sure this was the conclusion fairly recently.

[GordonD]

Nice idea for a diorama though, if you could manage the figures.