Hurricane Mk.1 L1973

[Fifer54]

I really hoped to avoid doing this, but my Google-fu has failed me, searching on here has drawn a blank, so now it's time to ask

the BM massive:

According to what little I have been able to find out about Hurricane production, Hurricane Mk.1 L1973 should have been produced

with fabric wings, it's serial number being almost right at the end of fabric-wing production in the first Hurricane production batch.

I believe many of the ragwings were subsequently modified into metal-winged aircraft. Does anyone on here know if L1973 was still

fabric-winged in mid-1940? If no-one knows, can anyone suggest how one might find out?

Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol1, No.12, in its "Battle of Britain special" aircraft in detail feature, has a profile of this aircraft in service

with 111 Sqn as JU-L I'd like to model it for the forthcoming BoB GB.

[Troy Smith]

very good question. I'd like to know myself as well.

That said I have never seen photographic proof of an L**** fabric wing Hurricane having been rewinged with metal wings, but 2 cases of cases of L**** aircraft retaining fabric wings way past the BoB, the Science museum plane did, and L1926 upended in a training unit in 1942, Hurricane at War 2, pages 52/53

I just googled the serial, very interesting.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Air_Ministry_Second_World_War_Official_Collection_CH1434.jpg

also http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234952982-hawker-hurricane-mki-172-airfix/

Anyway,

Note L2001 JU-B of 111 squadron. Definitely fabric wing, clearly visible on this shot.

I'd suggest that rewinging would likely only occur if the plane was damaged and sent to an M.U. for major repairs.

Times like this I wish Edgar was as devoted to Hurricane details as he is to Spitfires

[tango98]

Gaz,

In mid-September 1940, L1973 was on the strength of No.1 (Canadian) Sqn based at Northolt. It was severely damaged during combat with a mixed force of He 111s and Bf 109s during the mid-afternoon of 15 September and during which its pilot, F/O A.Yuile was wounded in the shoulder. The aircraft was subsequently repaired.

Althought there were a number of rag-wing Hurricanes still in service at the time and given that the last sets of fabric wings for production airframes had been completed/delivered a year earlier my immediate guess is that 1973 would have been refitted with metal wings by the time it reached No.1 Canadian.

I'll check through my Hurricane files to see what I may have on L1973 and let you know as I have a number of photos of No.1 Canadians Hurricanes during the B of B.

HTH

Dave

[tango98]

To add to Troys' comment re fabric wings, another which served but didn't survive the battle was L2012 of 605 Sqn which was lost on the afternoon of 15 Sept.

Without checking my files I believe that the first production airframe fitted with metal wings was L2027 being followed that same week (second week of July 1939) by L2029 and L2046.

First airframe fitted with metal wings for flight trials was L1877 in April 1939.

Dave

Edited June 9, 2015 by tango98

[Fifer54]

Thanks, guys, I'm grateful for all this information. It mostly re-inforces what I knew, although by my calculations from information on a website (forget which!),the

final fabric-winged aircraft in the first production batch should have been L1976- I probably didn't allow for gaps in serials . . .

[Max Headroom]

I have a question about L2001 above. This picture is reproduced in 'Hurricane at War' and Hurricane Special' both by Ian Allan. I'm certainly no Hurricane expert and what I (thought) I could see was a new outer wing in a lighter (fresher?) paint scheme which I *assumed* was metal. Add to that I cannot see an upper wing roundel.

So that is how I modelled it a few years ago.

It appears that I was wrong! What are the giveaway signs from the angle of the photo?

Incidentally I have also assumed a non armoured windscreen. Am I wrong with that too?

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

I have a question about L2001 above. This picture is reproduced in 'Hurricane at War' and Hurricane Special' both by Ian Allan. I'm certainly no Hurricane expert and what I (thought) I could see was a new outer wing in a lighter (fresher?) paint scheme which I *assumed* was metal. Add to that I cannot see an upper wing roundel.

So that is how I modelled it a few years ago.

It appears that I was wrong! What are the giveaway signs from the angle of the photo?

Incidentally I have also assumed a non armoured windscreen. Am I wrong with that too?

Trevor

The Hurricane outer wing attaches as a whole panel just outboard of the UC, the fabric starts outbaord of the gun bay. The fabric is what you can see can see as a lighter tone.

[Edgar]

What are the giveaway signs from the angle of the photo?

Fabric-covered wings did not have separate wingtips.

[Graham Boak]

I suspect the whole aircraft would have been repainted when a new wing was fitted. However, if not, then the more freshly painted parts would have been darker than the older paint, particularly the Dark Earth. The photo could however be fairly early for any rewinging - it clearly predates May 1940 (no fin flash) but perhaps someone knows more about it?

The more I look at that windscreen the less it looks like an armoured windscreen to me but I wouldn't swear to it, and don't have other photos handy to compare. The apparent lack of a wing roundel is odd. There was some experimenting done around the time of the first Spitfire squadron (see Airfix Spitfire Mk.I kit), so perhaps this is another example. I would assume that there was one on the other wing.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Max Headroom]

Troy and Edgar thanks for the prompt replies.

Rats!

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

Graham

L2001 photo is on page 34-35 of Hurricane at War, and the Ducimus monograph, page 60. Both caption picture as being Wick, early 1940. Plane lost 19 June, 1940 at Hatfield.

 

The Ducimus notes the lack of upperwing roundel, and that the wing had been repainted, which I'd not noticed!

As for the repaint, this famous image of 85 Sq at Lille Seclin in May 1940

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907653-hurricane-i-vy-cg-of-85-sqn-lille-seclin-around-apr-1940/

 

relinked from IWM

ROYAL AIR FORCE: FRANCE, 1939-1940.. © IWM (C 1518)IWM Non Commercial Licence

well shows the apparent fading of the fabric compared to metal. It maybe an effect of light on the different material texture, or just the fabric on the wings was more probe to fade.

Look at the UC leg, and directly above the metal/fabric change occurs, note the scuffed to bare metal behind the gun bays, and the much lighter tone of the Dark Earth on the fabric. This is also visible on fuselage, where the rear is fabric, and the nose is metal.

Other indicators of the fabric wing are shape of gun bay panels, and from the front, that the landing lights are a wing bay further inboard on the fabric wing compared to metal, and there are 5 slots in the lower wing, 4 ejector and another.

All these can be well seen in this excellent walkround of the Science museum Hurricane here

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_mk1_l1592/

cheers

T

Edited August 22, 2017 by Troy Smith
photobucket reups

[tonyot]

Rather than just being repainted (re doped!) I would say that the wing had been re fabriced and then re doped and that it was still waiting for the roundel to be applied. I`ve seen Hurricane`s where the rear fuselage is in a similar condition and the metal forward fuselage panels remain in the older paint. Didn`t the fabric covering have to be replaced regularly,......maybe yearly in temperate locations?

Cheers

Tony

[Edgar]

Normal time was five years (less in the tropics.)

I don't know if it was true for the Hurricane (though parts, like the Spitfire, came from various locations,) but metal-covered parts were normally undercoated grey, while, at the start of the war, fabric-covered were red doped, then silver doped, before camouflaging. Would the different undercoating have made a difference to the appearance of the top colours?

Spare items were supposed to be delivered in primer, which makes sense with the mirror schemes in use, at that time, also, while home-based fighters were just black and white underneath, in France they were supposed to also have roundels.

[Graham Boak]

There's little or no obvious difference in the colours on the new aircraft photographed before the war - e.g. 111 Sq. Because of this, it seems likelier that this is more due to differential fading rather than undercoating, although this may well have an influence. If more heat is reflected due to the silver undercoat (as opposed to grey) then what effect could this have?

My understanding is that the Hurricanes were re-covered on a 2-year cycle, although this may have more to do with heavy use in wartime than any ideal. In the case of many Mk.Is, this will have been further influenced by the modification process of turning them into Mk.IIs.

[Selwyn]

There's little or no obvious difference in the colours on the new aircraft photographed before the war - e.g. 111 Sq. Because of this, it seems likelier that this is more due to differential fading rather than undercoating, although this may well have an influence. If more heat is reflected due to the silver undercoat (as opposed to grey) then what effect could this have?

My understanding is that the Hurricanes were re-covered on a 2-year cycle, although this may have more to do with heavy use in wartime than any ideal. In the case of many Mk.Is, this will have been further influenced by the modification process of turning them into Mk.IIs.

It was about this time that the Type "S" camouflage paints came into use. Could it be that the main airframe is painted in non type "S" paint and the outer wing panel has been recovered and painted in the type "S" standard paints?

Just a thought!

Selwyn

[Graham Boak]

The first reference I know of to S type paints would be in June 1940, post-dating this photo, and it has been suggested that this only applied to Sky. As I recall, Edgar has argued that Supermarine documentation points to the adoption of smooth paints for the uppersurfaces being as late as 1943. This does seem odd, but identification of better documentation would seem to be lacking at the moment.

Either way, there's no suggestion of any significant colour change between the earlier and S paints. They would still be produced against the same colour samples, and older paint would be lighter than fresh paint.

[Edgar]

It was about this time that the Type "S" camouflage paints came into use. Could it be that the main airframe is painted in non type "S" paint and the outer wing panel has been recovered and painted in the type "S" standard paints?

No, the paint manufacturers could not produce a cellulose paint that was smooth and matt; Sky was actually glossy, but, as it was underneath it possibly mattered little. It could also be the reason for the use, and manufacture, of Sky in distempers, since they would be matt.

Supermarine, apparently on their own, found what they considered to be the ideal paint in mid-1942, showed the results to the Air Ministry and Farnborough, and, on 7-8-42, it was agreed to change to synthetic paint DTD517. Hawker (Typhoon) and Bristol (Beaufighter) soon followed suit.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Edgar

[Fifer54]

Thank you all for your input, gentlemen. It always amazes me here that a seemingly simple enquiry generates a stream of information from members who, even if

they themselves don't acknowledge it, are genuine experts . . .

[airjiml2]

There is a extant photo of L1973 in service with 1 (F) Squadron RCAF, but it is from the front right and it is really hard to tell if it has a fabric or metal wing. Wished the crew had doped the gun ports, then it would be easier to judge the distance of the landing light.

Jim

Edited June 12, 2015 by airjiml2

[Troy Smith]

There is a extant photo of L1973 in service with 1 (F) Squadron RCAF, but it is from the front right and it is really hard to tell if it has a fabric or metal wing. (AKA...I'm not qualified to make that distinction.) Wished the crew had doped the guns, then it would be easier to judge the distance of the landing light.

Jim

Not sure if relevant, but while watching War At War - Alone:May 1940- May 1941, I spotted some interesting bits, and did some screen grabs,

here's one, serial maybe L1973, hard to make out, but if the individual letter is known perhaps this can be confirmed or not. Doesn't help with the wing either.

Not sure where taken, but this is probably known, as I presume this was shot for a newsreel, note also the Beaufighters, with no visible sq codes, and Blenhiems.

Maybe worth a separate thread as this got me pondering...?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter

The first Beaufighter was delivered to RAF Tangmere for trials with the Fighter Interception Unit on 12 August 1940, and the first operational machines were received by 29 Squadron and 604 Squadron on 2 September.[11]

There maybe something of relevance here.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?54200-RCAF-Hurricanes-in-the-Battle-of-Britain

Sorry, bit off topic but hope of interest.

[airjiml2]

Troy,

L1973 was YO-G. Wonderful catch. I've not seen this footage before. I'll have to find that video.

Jim

Edited June 12, 2015 by airjiml2

[Troy Smith]

Troy,

L1973 was YO-G. Wonderful catch. I've not seen this footage before. I'll have to find that video.

Jim

HI Jim

The clip on the DVD is just 4 seconds, of the plane starting up and starting to taxi, though given the fast cutting I think there must be more. Unless it a piece of film editing from later on in the war, as there are shot that have to be from 1941 and 42, of later Hurricanes.

There are several interesting bits of film, the bit that made me look was Jumbo Gracie's US-Z of 56 Sq.

I just searched the IWM, they may have the footage, or see if the Pathe site has anything.

[tango98]

Jim,

Here's the link to the footage of 1 Canadian:

Note that 'G' has an early pole type aerial mast and a dh prop/spinner.

Also, P3080 (a quick tail view of which appears in the 1 Canadian bit) was shot down near Tunbridge Wells just after midday on 15 September with F/O Nesbitt baling out wounded so we know this was filmed prior to or on that day.

Cheers

Dave

Edited June 12, 2015 by tango98

[Troy Smith]

Cheers Dave

Note, the footage immediately after the 1sq is of 501 Sq taking off, including SD-X.

Here's a screen grab of YO-G/L1973, note the 'G' under the nose, De Havilland Hurricane spinner and what appears to be a metal wing, note further outbard position of landing light vs guns is just about visible

this head on a fabric wing shows the light is a bay inboard for comparison

[tango98]

Hi Troy,

Yes, G has a metal wing. When the squadron was inspected at Middle Wallop by Dowding on 25 June it was noted that the Hurricanes which the squadron had brought with them "were not of the latest type, he (Dowding) immediately made arrangements to replace these A/C with new Hurricanes." (italicised entry is verbatim from Sqn ORB for 25 June 1940)

Most of the replacements were Rotol equipped with metal wings. That G has retained a dh prop, it is quite likely that as there may not have been enough 'new' Hurricanes to fully equip the squadron, some, such as 'G' simply retained their dh props and pole masts and had their outer wings replaced until more 'new' Hurricanes became available for the squadron.

It is also interesting to note that even as they were in the process of receiving their 'new' aircraft, the squadron moved to Croydon (on 4/5 July) but was grounded on 11 July because of improper camouflage on their aircraft (This of course raises a whole bunch of new questions!!) and squadron markings had not yet been issued. This was underway by 16 July with flying recommencing the next day.

Cheers

Dave