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Mark

1/32 RAF/RN Phantom

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Looks like a couple of us contacted David Winter at Canuck Models directly, thanks for the swift reply David. I'm going to get a pair of nozzles from him ASAP and I will report back when I have them.

Zaggy I'm not sure your vac form idea will be any easier to install in the donor fuselage than cutting and inserting splices as per the Mitchell conversion, splicing does still retain rigidity.

One feature the splicing method doesn't answer is the higher intake "shoulder" on the Brit Phantoms, it is a bit behind the rear canopy line in profile and is quite noticeable compared to other Tooms, not many conversions seem to capture that. A vac intake exterior might be the answer.........

I have a 1/32 P51K to finish but it might have to wait, I feel the need, the need for speed.

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Woah, General... Go get 'em!

Any chance of getting a 3D laser scanner near the FGR.2? Whilst its not my thing, I do know people working on Object Recognition and Model Generation from 'Point Clouds' - which is what a 3D laser scanner would generate - who I maybe able to pressure into working on this sort of stuff for 'fun'... Me, I'm less interesting, being into Intelligent Systems for things like stochastically-scalable Path finding (ie: at one end of the spectrum, flying things like a UAV very aggressively at low level, but with a level of 'human-ness' to it, so everything is NOT mathematically precise, and thus predictable - at the other end, tuning things for a intelligent auto pilot that can react to dynamically changing airspace... Or tune things a different way, use swarms of small 'drones' to intelligently run a search pattern over complex terrain, for rapid response search and rescue)... But now I am babbling...

1/24th FGR.2 - yup, that'll be impressive!


Dan

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You know whenever this topic comes up anywhere there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm to tackle what is maybe not the hardest project but certainly is not the easiest either. And not the cheapest.

My mind keeps going back to the crowd funding concept. I would bag 2 pretty much regardless of cost and how many on here would take at least 1

Then you have others on LSP etc. You can't know numbers unless you do a Benoit with his 1/32 Blenheim.

l really do wonder if our entrepreneurs might consider a project with crowd funding assistance? I for one would put my cash where my mouth is

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Guy's

From my side the Phantom conversion is a long story, will keep this fairly brief, just have lots on the go (patterns to finish for other projects and have started a 'full time job', to get some regular and consistant income.

If you read what some of you have said in the post you are answering your own questions, take 4-6 months off work do the project etc. and make lots of money...

Then say that is not a real option.

The crowd funding idea is GOOD but is also a bad idea. I am curious like many other of the Blenheim project, and without knowing the man or any more than what I have read on the forums with regards to prices and numbers of kits to be made etc. I am very cautious, and before I upset anybody or the man himself I am just not 100% convinced that it can be done for the price quoted and for the anticipated sales, and not to mention we have not seen any drawings or even basic parts. I re-iterate I will be the first to raise a cheer if the project does come to frutition and if availabel and IF I have money I will probably purchase one.

Ok so crowd funding you all give me or MR X so many £/$ or whatever, the producer then has to produce the goods at a set price, and when and if it all goes belly up then how on earth does he pay everybody all back, and if he does not then how does he live with himself and or face the modelling world again???? the other problem with this project is it is so large that a pattern that gets made the first time may not work and there are so many areas that need attention that there are so many variables with cut lines and then with the tolerancing of the new parts to fit the injection parts. In some ways it could work out cheaper and better to make a brand new multi-media kit than do a conversion, obviously the best and easiest would be a IM kit by somebody.

Believe me there is a few that have looked at the project, GT Models, Derek Bradshaw, and my self under my own old banner of Alley Cat, and more recently for S & M models, this was an idea that we spoke of at last Telford. S & M announced it to the world with not even a budget price from me to do the project. When I quoted him as far back as April he was not sure, we then spent most of the summer months talking and re-considering the plan, wel as you now as for now the project is on the back burner.

As like many other I have spent the last few years looking at the project, and have purchased kits, books and even made the special trip to Carlisle to take pictures of and airframe, and dragged my wife along for the day. On top of I have read the articels spoken with Tommy Thomason, and many others, had a lone of a Cutting edge kit to look at and measure etc etc....... So all told I have spent a lot of money on time and research all from my own pocket. I still do not know everything about the conversion but and each time I look on the forums I learn even more points.

Believe me with at least three of us fairly in the know and have looked at some costings, I am sure most types of construction have been thought of and looked at, from resin to vacform etc.

None of them offer a full and or easy option, also some are now saying well the exhausts will help and I am sure that they will but in the scheme of it to make an accurate K or M Phantom that is the easiest part once it is drawn as is shown by Canuck Models.

Now if I or another company made a set of exhausts and put them to market and said here is your converion for a K / M, I do not think many would be impressed. I am over emphasising the point, what I am trying to say is some of you would be happy with a basic and cheap conversion option and others would expect all the bells and whistles with everything provided in the box, so where is the happy medium I ask.

Decals are another issue as we all know to do it correctly a full set of stencils are also required but there again there is at least two maybe three differnt colours for many of those, depending what colour scheme you wish to model? Then on top of that what other markings etc. would be best and roundel types etc......AND WE ALL HAVE OUR FAVORITE, and none of these decals are small, so that alone is a huge task.

It is all about numbers and when you look at the poll on LSP the yes votes are still just over 100 and that is been up for a few years, and even those guys are saying it is a good idea and have not sworn an oath to the cause.

I could go on a lot longer but patterns are calling me, but if some rich person would like to fund the project I am sure my arm could be twisted.

cheers Ali

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Ali

Thanks for your post. Very informative and being in business myself fully understood. I can see running it as a business call would be a brave decision at best and possibly foolish at least

Now if a big lottery win comes up for me I take it that we might have an outside chance of seeing one some day !!!!!!

Thanks again Ali

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Yes, thanks Ali for injecting some reality into this. I don't mean that nastily - I would love a conversion for a big Phantom but clearly there is an awful lot involved which maybe means it has to be pie in the sky for most of us or a mammoth project for those prepared to wield a razor saw!! Fortunately I have one or two projects that will occupy my time but for the time being this is probably the wrong side of the rainbow for me!!

Simon

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Decals are another issue as we all know to do it correctly a full set of stencils are also required but there again there is at least two maybe three differnt colours for many of those, depending what colour scheme you wish to model? Then on top of that what other markings etc. would be best and roundel types etc......AND WE ALL HAVE OUR FAVORITE, and none of these decals are small, so that alone is a huge task.

Decals really shouldn't be a show stopper. Yes, they take some time to do and they cost money to print, but given the scope and expense of the rest of the project, decals were never the concern for me when during my efforts to produce a conversion kit.

Edited by DavidWinter

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David I agree in some ways, but when you need to do full stencil data and various roundels PLUS decide on what markings to do it does add up. Also what quantity do you make, believe me I got stung when I first started printing decals, then having lots in stock for years to come. Not a show stopper as we agree but is not a cost that can be ignored, or taken lightly.

Ali

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.

If you read what some of you have said in the post you are answering your own questions, take 4-6 months off work do the project etc. and make lots of money...

Then say that is not a real option.

And that again is the kicker - 4-6 months off work on something that you will likely never make that money back with... Even crowd sourcing.

I'd love to try it, but most every decal/resin/conversion person/company I know is in it for the love of it; not for the massive profits to be made! But you still need to live - alas, some vac'd Phantom parts (ie, unfinished), a bit of resin and Etch, will likely NEVER make me Au $40k to cover work... being REALLY generous and suggesting 500 sales, that still means I'd have to charge Au$80 a set, BEFORE material costs, before kits to destroy, before making a new Vacuum bench to fit the pieces, Package, decals, etc... So suddenly, you're probably upto the Au$150-160; and you NEED to do 500.

Not much wiggle room...

Again, I'd love to try it, but that's also cause work is grinding me down; but from an economic sense, it makes none :(

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it's a great shame that Frank Brown/Echelon never followed up on the Hunters and Lightning. An FGR2/FG1 to those incredibly high standards would have been something else....

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it's a great shame that Frank Brown/Echelon never followed up on the Hunters and Lightning. An FGR2/FG1 to those incredibly high standards would have been something else....

Oh how true is that...

Still its surprising what is coming out in mainstream injection in 1/32 so we can always :pray:

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David I agree in some ways, but when you need to do full stencil data and various roundels PLUS decide on what markings to do it does add up. Also what quantity do you make, believe me I got stung when I first started printing decals, then having lots in stock for years to come. Not a show stopper as we agree but is not a cost that can be ignored, or taken lightly.

Ali

Canuck's minimum decal print run is 100 sheets, which is probably the smallest amount of kits you could make to allow you earn a profit greater than zero.

As for the artwork, well yes, obviously you need to do the artwork. But there are so many resources for references that really you should be able to put the vector art together in a couple of weeks. The most difficult and time consuming part of any decal sheet is gathering the reference materials. Once you have those you've made the rest of your job pretty straight forward. Every decal sheet in my brand has full stencils and as many applicable unit badges and other markings as I can stuff in, and if you have enough references, then the art goes together rather quickly.

Like I said, decals were the absolute least of my worries. The reason my attempt at one of these conversions died on the vine is the cost of resin casting. My screen printing services are not inexpensive, but some of the casting quotes seemed like the businesses were trying to pay their years mortgage from this one project.

Edited by DavidWinter

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In Frank's original build, which must go back a good ten years ago plus, he made the mistake of widening the whole of the lower wing to extend the width of the rear fuselage to take the wider Spey cans. He missed the taper of this area, so the wing span was too wide. His later build(s) corrected this and can be regarded as being a great tutorial...

But still leaves the fuselage with too much of a coke-bottle shape in plan.

Iain

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But still leaves the fuselage with too much of a coke-bottle shape in plan.

Iain

..not really noticed that on Frank's build's, but it 's been a while since I've looked at them. We've spoken before on this and are agreed that the rear fuselage shouldn't be significantly wider as the larger Spey cans are accommodated by being closer together...there certainly shouldn't be a coke bottle shape..in fact there should be a straight transition into a small but noticeable toe-in (I'm looking at a Hasegawa FG1 at the moment!)

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Zaggy I'm not sure your vac form idea will be any easier to install in the donor fuselage than cutting and inserting splices as per the Mitchell conversion, splicing does still retain rigidity.

One feature the splicing method doesn't answer is the higher intake "shoulder" on the Brit Phantoms, it is a bit behind the rear canopy line in profile and is quite noticeable compared to other Tooms, not many conversions seem to capture that. A vac intake exterior might be the answer....

GDay Coors, actually its the 'taller nacelle' issue that brought me to the idea of an overlay - that way, the existing F-4J 'nacelles' can be used as somewhere to affix things too (depending on the thickness of the Vac part, directly or with some spacer card stock in the middle). The only major issue is 'cutting in' somewhere above the break line, in line with the fwd line of the engine exhausts. Then we aviod the issue of making HUGE cuts or having to rescribe huge area's (the other main area of concern I forsee is the wing root - I'd be inclined to leave the wing alone and just fit the Vac nacelle to the curves of the wing upper). Essentitally we'd be Laminating on another layer of plastic (taller, wider nacelles)... Then we just Vac the intake shape as per spec.

The other pro is, we can then Vac in the interiors of the intakes too, and working with Styrene on Styrene is ALWAYS easier than Resin on Styrene.

Does that better describe the idea? Because you're right, the taller and fatter nacelles/intakes on the 'toom are REALLY noticable; just as noticable as the deeper lower fuselage for the Spey's...

Dan

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Hiya Zaggy, yes that is what I imagined you were planning and it would make the larger shoulder easier. The drawings on the Tailhook Topics blog show the extra thickness and height at this point.

A further problem I'm looking at with the Mitchell conversion, and touched on by Ian Sig32 earlier, is that this method results in an unrealistic waisting of the fuselage mid way along, photo's and some drawings show a mild waist but not as pronounced as the conversion. Maybe the insert needs to go further back, producing a straighter intake line over the wing when seen from above?

I must get out my old Osprey colour books from the Eighties and my Hasegawa FG1.....

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Hiya Zaggy, yes that is what I imagined you were planning and it would make the larger shoulder easier. The drawings on the Tailhook Topics blog show the extra thickness and height at this point.

A further problem I'm looking at with the Mitchell conversion, and touched on by Ian Sig32 earlier, is that this method results in an unrealistic waisting of the fuselage mid way along, photo's and some drawings show a mild waist but not as pronounced as the conversion. Maybe the insert needs to go further back, producing a straighter intake line over the wing when seen from above?

I must get out my old Osprey colour books from the Eighties and my Hasegawa FG1.....

Previously, I compared Hasegawa's F4J to their FG1, hardly scientific, granted but it did provide some pointers...particularly the relationship between the wings and the rear fuselage..AND the intakes. The wedge used to widen the conversions I've seen, seem a little too wide, I haven't worked out how much it should be, but it may be worth checking that out. IF , and that is a big'un, the intakes are too wide, that would contribute to the coke bottle shape...

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Guys

I have in the last 24 hours or so heard a very strong rumour that there is a new injection moulded K/M Phantom in development, I am not usually a person up for rumours but this one I do believe is more plausable than most that I do hear. The reason being is that I have heard it from two different sources. So it maybe worthwhile to hold on a little longer, especially if anybody is going to try to make money from doing a conversion, if it is for yourself go for it, it will be FUN..........

Ali

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Guys

I have in the last 24 hours or so heard a very strong rumour that there is a new injection moulded K/M Phantom in development, I am not usually a person up for rumours but this one I do believe is more plausable than most that I do hear. The reason being is that I have heard it from two different sources. So it maybe worthwhile to hold on a little longer, especially if anybody is going to try to make money from doing a conversion, if it is for yourself go for it, it will be FUN..........

Ali

Scale?

D

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Scale?

D

As we are talking 1/32 I did not think that I had to confirm that. However to add to the story, there is also a strong rumour about a new 1/48 scale one as well, so we should be well catered for.

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I'd love to see a kit in 1/32 and would for sure buy one (already have a Tamiya J to cut up into a FGR.1 with the Frank Mitchell method), but I wont be holding my breath.

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Guys

I have in the last 24 hours or so heard a very strong rumour that there is a new injection moulded K/M Phantom in development

Ali

That would be truly fantastic and I would pre order 2 anyway sucker that I am

Hopefully not just plastic vapour and thanks for sharing Ali

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[edit] - sounds like there's a real kit in the works https://www.facebook.com/Hong-Kong-Models-Co-Ltd-1375731456009809/timeline/

And like I said over on ARC, it wouldn't surprise me if it were true. If you want a kit of something produced, the best way to get that done is to start scratch building or converting your own.

Edited by DavidWinter

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Having looked at that link the head on view on the post dated 29 September is of an F4 with an intake in the 1 o'clock position on the nose so not RAF/FAA and certainly not with a cream radome! But tthe one 15 hours ago is probably one we are all familiar with. Are HKM guilty of spinning? Time will tell !!

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