MiG 21 Question - Indian Air Force

[Tiger331]

Hi Folks,

Question concerning Eduard 1:48 MiG Fishbed kits. I was just wondering if anyone knows if I can replicate an Indian Air Force MiG 21FL variant using the MiG 21PF kit (i.e. the one with the forward opening all-in-one canopy). I believe the MiG 21FL was an Indian sub-variant of the MiG 21PF but it would be good to know for sure.

Thanks

[SaintsPhil]

I think not, the FL had the broad cord tail as per the PFM, you'd have to cross kit the spine and tail from that kit with the PF.

Phil

Edited May 17, 2015 by SaintsPhil

[Antoine]

IIRC, there was a possibility with a mix of Ed's MiG boxes.

I know there's build somewhere....

[RidgeRunner]

The answer is simply - yes. The FL is essentially a PF with the broad fin and corresponding spine. Alternatively you could you a PFM and blend in a PF canopy? I am attempting to do this in 1/72..a bit more tricky as there are no PFs around!

[Troy Smith]

Hi Folks,

Question concerning Eduard 1:48 MiG Fishbed kits. I was just wondering if anyone knows if I can replicate an Indian Air Force MiG 21FL variant using the MiG 21PF kit (i.e. the one with the forward opening all-in-one canopy). I believe the MiG 21FL was an Indian sub-variant of the MiG 21PF but it would be good to know for sure.

Thanks

Hi Mark

Wondered similar things myself (see links to ACIG below)

This http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataversions.htm

seems to be a good beginners guide to variants.

Second Generation

Radar equipped all-weather interceptor, armed with missiles on two wing pylons only, some versions with external GP-9 gun pod (one 23mm two-barrel gun GSh-23).

MiG-21PF (76)

MiG-21FL (77)

MiG-21FL (77, built under licence in India)

MiG-21PFS (94)

MiG-21PFM (94A)

MiG-21PFM (94N

)

Eduard do a PFM kit, and they did a Indian AF special boxing.

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/MiG-21MF-BIS-in-the-Indian-service-1-48.html

Which I now note does not have the forward opening canopy.

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/MiG-21PF-1-48-1-2.html

The boxings that have the canopy, eg MiG-21 PF, have two types on the sprue, so I presume the correct one will be in someone's spares box. Or, get a MiG-21 PF and see if you can get the PFM fin?

Trying to work out what sprues are in what MiG-21 boxing gives me a headache. I've not seen a clear listing.

And, if you have not seen them, a couple of ACIG articles on the MiG-21 in Indian service

Pt 1

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=47

Pt 2

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=169&Itemid=47

Tom Cooper is a member here as well.

The MiG-21 FL saw use in the 1971 Indo-Pakistan conflict

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160&Itemid=47

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=161&Itemid=47

for those curious from the above, DP Caspar do a sheet in 1/72nd.

http://www.dpcasper.cz/obtisky72014.html

Not in 1/48th though

cheers

T

[Tiger331]

Chaps,

Thanks for the input. I have the Eduard Czech 'Silver Arrows' boxing which includes parts for the -PF,-PFM and -R variants so I'm going to spend this afternoon working out if I can produce an FL from the plastic. As at least one of you has stated, its not easy working out Eduard's sprue trees but since I can only actually produce one complete aircraft from the mass of plastic contained in this kit, I would rather do a nice tiger-striped Indian -FL than any of the Czech options. I suspect the only challenge will be trying to match up a PFM spine with one of the forward opening canopies….then again, it may not be an issue. I'll report back.

Thanks again

Mark

[Tiger331]

OK…...

I've done my overnight research now and played around with the plastic in the Eduard Czech 'Silver Arrows' kit. I am now pretty sure that I can complete my Indian Air Force MiG-21 FL from the kit through judicious use of various sprues. In overall terms, all of the sprue trees for the first variant in the box (MiG-21 PF) will be required. In addition, Sprue 8230N from the MiG-21PFM will be required too. This sprue provides the parts for the spine with the enlarged fin and parachute housing that are missing from the MiG-21 PF variant. I have dry fitted the PFM spine parts to the PF fuselage and they match up with both the fuselage and the one piece forward opening canopy. If you go down this route, take care to use both the enlarged rudder and the ventral strake from sprue 8230S (the mainplane sprue) and not the two items on sprue 8230U which is specifically for the PF variant. In order to fit the enlarged ventral strake, you will need to perform some minor surgery to the undersurfaces of the rear fuselage halves to remove the plastic associated with the fitting of the shorter strake found on the PF. Sprue 8230N also includes the ventral gun pack which I will fit to my Indian MiG-21 FL. I had not previously noticed that this particular Eduard issue contains very few external stores/pylons so some robbing from the spares box will be required if you want to fit drop tanks, rocket pods etc. Specific unit markings for Indian Air Force MiG-21FL squadrons are also an issue….I am not aware of any being previously produced, either in kits or aftermarket decal sheets…. understandably most cover the MiG-21MF and -bis in service with the Indians since most of the Academy and Eduard releases to date cover these sub-variants. Fortunately, the tiger striped jet I want to do (which features on the front cover of a Squadron Signal title) does not appear to have any unit markings and I can source national markings and serials from other kits. If my research throws up any other considerations, I'll post them here.

Mark

[Tom Cooper]

The MiG-21FL is usually considered something like 'Indian variant'. But, actually, it was exported to Egypt, Iraq and Syria too. Although Soviets considered it something like 'early PFM, their Arab customers tended to call it FL as well - if for no other reason then because of influence of Indian instructors that used to serve at Academies in Egypt and Iraq, in the 1960s (and later).

Technically, the FL is something like 'mid' between the PF and the PFM. It has got the earlier, forward-hinged canopy of the F-13 and PF variants, but a wider fin of the PFM.

Starting in 1969, most of surviving FLs (whether those in India, Egypt, Iraq or Syria) were modified to carry the GP-9 gun-pod under the centreline. This was rarely deployed in service, because fuel was at premium for this aircraft, and thus the centreline drop tank was considered 'more important' than the GP-9 pod.

[Tiger331]

The MiG-21FL is usually considered something like 'Indian variant'. But, actually, it was exported to Egypt, Iraq and Syria too. Although Soviets considered it something like 'early PFM, their Arab customers tended to call it FL as well - if for no other reason then because of influence of Indian instructors that used to serve at Academies in Egypt and Iraq, in the 1960s (and later).

Technically, the FL is something like 'mid' between the PF and the PFM. It has got the earlier, forward-hinged canopy of the F-13 and PF variants, but a wider fin of the PFM.

Starting in 1969, most of surviving FLs (whether those in India, Egypt, Iraq or Syria) were modified to carry the GP-9 gun-pod under the centreline. This was rarely deployed in service, because fuel was at premium for this aircraft, and thus the centreline drop tank was considered 'more important' than the GP-9 pod.

Agree, Tom

Many publications seem to associate this variant with the Indian Air Force but, as you say, others used it too. I think it can only be a matter of time before Eduard treat us to another boxing of their excellent MiG-21 family, which includes a mix n' match of sprue trees to recreate the FL variant.

Thanks for the interesting note on the GP-9 gun pod vs. centreline drop tank. All of my references to Indian Air Force 'C992' (the tiger striped jet) suggest the GP-9 pod was fitted with the aircraft also toting two R-3S missiles too, so this is what I plan to hang from it. I guess the Indians used it as a point defence fighter in 1971 and felt the need for firepower exceeded that for the additional range.....or maybe I'm wrong ?.

Mark

[Tom Cooper]

Apparently yes: at least on the Western Front of the 1971 War, IAF MiG-21s were primarily operated as point defence interceptors. Some flew CAPs and as mini-AWACS too (the latter might sound 'crazy' considering MiG-21's crapy radar, but keep in mind: this was the best AI-radar in IAF's service at that time), but most of the times they were scrambled only if some PAF activity was reported.

Thus, fuel was not as important and one of pilots even scored a gun-kill against an F-104A that was accelerating away at low altitude (alone considering what a tiny speck that Zipper must've been in the Indian pilot's visor, and then vibrations caused by the GP-9.. that was certainly no small feat).

[Tiger331]

Ever so slightly off-topic but since we are discussing, in the round, the Eduard MiG-21 kits a word of warning about one of the aftermarket products that I have used on another MiG-21 project. Before I start I should categorically state that this is in no way a criticism of the particular product which is, IMHO, very nicely moulded and is clearly designed to fit Eduard kit. The set in question is by a little known Bulgarian manufacturer (Cold War Studio) who clearly knows about the MiG-21 and has produced a set to correct the well-publicised issue with the Eduard MiG-21bis nose profile. The set of four parts includes a corrected nose intake area, shock cone housing, shock cone and forward undercarriage bay bulkhead. I particularly like the fact that the shock cone is separate from the housing and can be removed and re-inserted through the mouth of the intake. This part is also superbly moulded with the prominent (but tiny) perforations reproduced around the rear of the shock cone. As a separate piece, it aids the alignment of this part once the kit is together. Personally, I have had some issues (probably self-generated !) with the alignment of MiG-21 shock cones in both the horizontal and vertical, in the past, so having the ability to fettle with this part, if necessary, is a real boon. Now the problem. When I cemented the shock cone housing into the air intake part, the hardening super glue somehow 'pinched' the housing such that when I next presented the completed part to the kit forward fuselage, whilst one side was perfectly aligned the other side had, to my dismay, a marked step between the original kit part and the resin nose intake. Its 26mm (or thereabouts) of nose intake and therefore a substantial piece so it was back to basics to see if I could rescue the situation. After using a judicious amount of filler, it was obvious that the 'pinch' was still too pronounced so I overlaid some curved pieces of plasticard along the side and length of the resin intake part and have, over three days, gradually melded these pieces of plasticard (and more filler) into the intake to remove both the step and the 'pinch'. Tomorrow will be the litmus test when I spray on the layer of undercoat to see if my 'back to basics' approach to this problem has worked. As I said right at the start, this is in no way a criticism of the aftermarket parts (I've just ordered another two sets; thats my confidence in their quality) and, I suspect, is down to my overzealous use of a strong superglue but those of you contemplating using this set to fix the otherwise excellent Eduard MiG-21bis have been warned to watch out ...….it will reward care and patience !. Highly recommended.

[Troy Smith]

Fortunately, the tiger striped jet I want to do (which features on the front cover of a Squadron Signal title) does not appear to have any unit markings and I can source national markings and serials from other kits. If my research throws up any other considerations, I'll post them here.

Mark

I am being sucked into MiG madness.... but I was very curious about the tiger striped MiG-21 FL, and having not seen a photo I finally ran across one.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/History/1971/West/C992.jpg.html

MiG-21 FL (C992) operating from Uttarlai

A very famous photographs of the "Tiger Stripes" MiG-21 FL - C992. This aircraft was actually painted in black stripes over natural metal finish - and was operated by No.29 Squadron "Scorpions" out of Uttarlai. From available records, the aircraft was bought into service only towards the end of the war and did not see much action. The aircraft is armed with two Ka-13 air to air missiles and a GP-9 gunpod.

Interestingly the photo caption says the stripes were applied over the aluminium varnish, but this looks fully overpainted.

Tom Cooper shows this as having a pale blue underside

from here http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=169&Itemid=47

Probably the best known IAF MiG-21FL is this example, seen in service either during the Bagladesh War or at another time in the early 1970s, while being equipped with the GSh-9 gun pod. Usually described as wearing "tiger stripes", the aircraft has actually got an improvised heavy camouflage in random pattern, which points at the likelyhood of this being applied during the war in 1971, when a number of Indian MiG-21FLs and Su-7s have got a similar pattern. Note that the strips of dark brown (some sources say black) were in part applied also over the lower surfaces originally painted light blue.

I can't see a lighter underside in the above photo, or a pale background square to the C992

Has any more information or photos on these Indian MiG-21 FL's surfaced?

Hope of interest, amazed Eduard have not cobbled together the sprues already existing to do a FL version, with various Indian schemes and all the Arab use, as both of these along with Vietnam were the main operational use of the MiG-21?

I have not worked my way through all the ACIG pages on other use, most of the African use was in much smaller numbers IIRC from the basic reading I have done.

[lesthegringo]

I am being sucked into MiG madness....

Allow me to pull you deeper into the MiG mire...

Eduards rendition of the MiG-21PFM (kit 8237) has a Vietnamese PAAF portrayed on the box artwork and it has this as green splotches over a silver base. Now, firstly, was this actually a silver base and not a light grey, or even light green, and if it was silver, was it a natural metal finish or a silver coloured lacquer?

My searching seems to be inconclusive, with the upper base colour quoted differently, but with more alignment on the silver undersides, but even then no consensus.

Any ideas?

[Tom Cooper]

Tom Cooper shows this as having a pale blue underside

from here http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=169&Itemid=47

I can't see a lighter underside in the above photo, or a pale background square to the C992

Has any more information or photos on these Indian MiG-21 FL's surfaced?

Hope of interest, amazed Eduard have not cobbled together the sprues already existing to do a FL version, with various Indian schemes and all the Arab use, as both of these along with Vietnam were the main operational use of the MiG-21?

I have not worked my way through all the ACIG pages on other use, most of the African use was in much smaller numbers IIRC from the basic reading I have done.

I drew this artwork with help of a much smaller - and far less clear - 'version' of the photo you've posted above, and a much older artwork. So, haven't had clue if there were indeed two different 'base colours' underneath 'tiger stripes'.

When I look at that photo now, I would say there were none.

Also, I suspect ('guess') that the base colour was actually bare metal overall.

In theory - I stress: in theory - it is possible that IAF's MiG-21FLs have got a coat of that 'silver grey' often cited by various Arab sources, by 1971 (as some sort of additional protection from local weather). But, I am yet to see a single photo that would clearly confirm this.

Whichever it was, that base colour was certainly 'badly-worn-out' - de-facto 'smudged' into some sort of 'very dirty light grey with silvering touch'. That's at least the impression one gets from all colour photos of IAF's MiG-21FLs taken immediately after the 1971 War with Pakistan.

Eduards rendition of the MiG-21PFM (kit 8237) has a Vietnamese PAAF portrayed on the box artwork and it has this as green splotches over a silver base. Now, firstly, was this actually a silver base and not a light grey, or even light green, and if it was silver, was it a natural metal finish or a silver coloured lacquer?

Most often, such camo was applied in rather 'primitive' fashion: base colour should've been bare metal overall (with slight differences in colour of panels made from various metals). Dark green was then brushed on top of that, without any varnish.

(Note, yes, I know, I also have read various English-language books citing use of light green overall, with dark green splotches... but for reasons I'll keep for myself, I'm not convinced. IMHO, these are interpretations of what people think to see on certain photos [especially those taken on days with solid cloud cover over North Vietnamese air bases, which happens quite often].)

EDIT: ah yes, and welcome to MiG-Mania!

Edited October 17, 2015 by Tom Cooper

[MigModeller]

Anyone seen an image of the Fujimi 1/72 Mig-21PF (early)? I've been hunting for this kit for years.

Here's their 1/72 "Mig-21PF (later)" as they call it.

[Julien]

Just my 2p worth looking at that photo I would say it is painted the colours in the profile. They are faded out but you can just make a out a colour change under the nose roundel. The surface under the squiggles looks to uniform to be NMF and too matt.

Then again maybe its just my eyes!

Julien

[Ace From Outer Space]

That Tiger stripe IAF Mig is my favourite Mig 21. Whe I was a child I made one from the old Airfix Mig 21 kit, with no concessions to accuracy or anything else, and decals made from RAF roundels overpainted in acrylics. I sill have it, yellowing and gathering dust on a shelf in my mums house.

I want that Fujimi kit!

Cheers

Viv

[Wez]

Didn't the FL's have Fowler flaps like the F-13s rather than plain flaps like the later MiGs?

IIRC, there was a track with a fairing on the wing underside, inboard of the inner edge of the flaps. Also, the flap area was smaller on the upper surface.

I'm not entirely sure of these facts, I need to check my references and I'm pretty sure the facts were a bit hazy when I made my Indian MiG when the Fujimi kit first came out.

Minor details I know but...

Wez

[Tom Cooper]

Good question, Wez.

AFAIK, they should originally have the same flaps like F-13s.

Sadly, there are no photos clearly showing that part of IAF's FLs as of 1971.

Though, given Russians began installing blown flaps on their MiG-21PFs (turning them into PFS') already before deliveries of FLs to India began (1966-67), I would say they've got blown flaps too.

[Wez]

Good question, Wez.

AFAIK, they should originally have the same flaps like F-13s.

Sadly, there are no photos clearly showing that part of IAF's FLs as of 1971.

Though, given Russians began installing blown flaps on their MiG-21PFs (turning them into PFS') already before deliveries of FLs to India began (1966-67), I would say they've got blown flaps too.

Thanks Tom,

What you say and especially the time-line makes sense and likewise, I've not found any pictures either.

[Tom Cooper]

BTW, to understand what I mean with that 'base' colour that was either original 'bare metal overall', or 'silver-grey', take this photo:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ElNEOElS0Ew/UqZ7pXfWRxI/AAAAAAAAge0/eRl87ELbbTk/s320/INDIAN+AIR+FORCE+IAF+Mig-21+FL+taxying+past+a+phased+out+Mig-25+trainer+aircraft+at+Kalikunda+airbase+in+West+Bengal.+The+Mig-21+FL+will+also+be+phased+out+of+IAF+on+Dec+11,+2013+after+completing+50+years+of+service..jpg

- then convert it to black & white format, and compare with the photo of C992 above.

[Linescriber]

Dear Tom, sorry can't agree with your contention that IAF MiG 21 FLs operated as mini AWACS during the 1971 war.   How could they with their first generation R-2L radar and 40 min endurance? It simply acted as an airborne radio-relay for other T-77s and Su-7s undertaking low-level night strikes with 500 Kg bombs on Pakistani airfields. Although several different pilots flew the relay mission, all used the call sign "Sparrow". Also, given the extremely low fuel they recovered with, the Sparrows would provide advance information about which alternate to divert to if required as PAF B-57 strikes were simultaneously underway on own airfields.

Cheers

Polly

[Linescriber]

Here's another'false' interpretation!!

 

[Linescriber]

Fundamentally, there were several versions to the "Tiger stripes" never intended as stripes!!. Basically, a green household paint hand applied over NMF in various patterns. Some were even small strokes like WW2 Luftwaffe mottling!! In the East more formal, overall camo was applied as the Migs were used almost exclusively in the ground attack role.  BTW C750 seen first left was the aircraft that shot down Wg Cdr Mervyn Middlecoat in an F-104 of PAF's 9 Sqn during the 1971 war

.

 

 

This T-77 suffered a nose wheel collapse during a night landing on the second day of the war. It shows the rough application of the paint.

 

 

 

 

[Linescriber]

This pic of an in-progress 1/32 Revell FL of mine shows how it was done!!