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Question that's bugged me in terms of respect


PhantomBigStu

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When I started modelling as a lad I built mainly German aircraft, as the colours and markings were much cooler than RAF aircraft; now I prefer to do only British aircraft, military and civil, of all eras, mainly as a celebration of what our aerospace industry has produced over the last century. I have always owned and driven British cars as well!

Nevertheless it's a sad fact of human history that war has always been a major driving force for technology. The guys knapping flints 100,000 years ago soon realised that they were as efficient at killing members of a different tribe as they were animals for food; likewise spears, and bows and arrows. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, we went from biplanes to space rockets in the years 1937-45. Much of our 21st Century technology is derived from developments started in the Cold War.

As an aside, am I being cynical when I suspect that many people within any nation or group, including this country as well, are probably OK with war when their side is winning, but maybe a little less certain when it turns out that they are probably going to end up on the losing side?

Edited by Welkin
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There never appears to be any moral dimension or disapproval in the display of warbirds at air shows and those could be viewed as full size "models" since in most cases they are painstakingly recreated or restored rather than original.

Nick

I took my wife to the Duxford Air Show last year and one part of her did feel mildly uncomfortable at the presence of all those 'killing machines' around here. However, for the most part she just enjoyed the planes as wonderful engineering creations, her being an engineer herself.

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Personally, when I build a model the regime that it was attributed to does not come into my thinking.

I am building a representation of a part of history that should not be forgotten, but should definitely be forgiven.

I build out of respect to and as a memory to the combatants on all sides that either survived, or did not survive, a period of time that defined the world as we know it.

Some people may be concerned about the use of the swastika or other markings, but I am building a piece of machinery that I want to be as accurate to the original as I can.

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HMS Victory. How many men were killed though the use of that particular vessel, at the orders of her various commanding officers? KMS Bismark- how many died in that particular little episode? And yet we happily build models of both of these vessels.

To really put the cat among the pigeons... how do we feel about building non-military subjects where someone has been killed, ie Senna's Williams, Donahue's Penske or even the Air France Concorde? In the first two cases, the men concerned were doing nothing more than entertaining the masses, the Concorde occupants were either working (crew) or going about their innocent affairs - those who died (and killed) during wars were at the least defending their country, right or wrong as we may see it through the lens of history, and possibly deserve to be remembered in some way.

History happens. People make history, often with the aid of machines. In the end, portraying the vehicles, machines and individuals concerned is down to the taste of each modeller, and I don't think that there's any need to defend that choice.

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It has been said that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

It's difficult to remember the lessons when one is unaware of the history, which is a very good reason for presenting as complete a picture as you can.

Understanding the events you portray will help if you are challenged by some history airbrush wielding member of the PC brigade, as you can use your knowledge to challenge their attitudes and preconceptions, rather than allowing them to force you to justify yourself.

Personally, I find seeking the context of everything I build as satisfying as the building itself, which adds to my enjoyment of the hobby. In doing so, you will also come to a far more balanced view of history than by relying on what little you might have been taught at school.

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It has been said that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

It's difficult to remember the lessons when one is unaware of the history, which is a very good reason for presenting as complete a picture as you can.

Understanding the events you portray will help if you are challenged by some history airbrush wielding member of the PC brigade, as you can use your knowledge to challenge their attitudes and preconceptions, rather than allowing them to force you to justify yourself.

Personally, I find seeking the context of everything I build as satisfying as the building itself, which adds to my enjoyment of the hobby. In doing so, you will also come to a far more balanced view of history than by relying on what little you might have been taught at school.

Wise words indeed.

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I have a kit of a sealer clubbing a baby seal.

As numbed as I am by the prevalence towards violence the human race is capable of , I still have qualms about that particular kit.

I'll build any war machine that takes my fancy, but that kit...

The eyebrows shooting up when I describe the kit to modellers is something to see!

Edited by krow113
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There is no doubt that Axis aircraft employed some interesting technology and carried some interesting color schemes and markings. But for me, the son and nephew of WW II veterans, those are not sufficient reasons. We won, they lost, and even though many of the enemy may have fought with honor, they fought for the wrong reasons. I build mostly civil aircraft, and if I do build a German, Japanese, or Italian aircraft, it's a model of a captured one in Allied markings.

That said, I harbor no ill will toward the current German, Japanese, or Italian generations.

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Anyone who models military aircraft knows there proudly displaying replicas of aircraft that job is to kill people, whether it be intentionally as part of bombing civilian targets, or as consequence through attacking military targets, not to mention aircrew as part of air combat, where do you draw the line, in terms of whats going to far into the realms of disrespectful. This question was raised as I recently completely Spitfire R6800, which on the 17th October 1940 was shot down killing its pilot by Werner Molders and I was contemplating doing Molders Bf109 to go with it, until I actually thought about it for a minute

Both men set out that day with the intention of using deadly force to accomplish their aims. One lost and died; that does not make him innocent or a victim. The other won and lived; that does not make him guilty or an offender. Neither do the outcomes establish the virtue of pilots' causes. The outcomes were a consequence of war.

Personally I don't think it's a matter of respect for the dead. For me, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, it's more about to what extent you feel you are promoting the Third Reich by modelling subjects directly related to it.

Stewart

Edited by 3DStewart
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There is no doubt that Axis aircraft employed some interesting technology and carried some interesting color schemes and markings. But for me, the son and nephew of WW II veterans, those are not sufficient reasons. We won, they lost, and even though many of the enemy may have fought with honor, they fought for the wrong reasons. I build mostly civil aircraft, and if I do build a German, Japanese, or Italian aircraft, it's a model of a captured one in Allied markings.

That said, I harbor no ill will toward the current German, Japanese, or Italian generations.

So would you build one in the colours of the Soviet Union?

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Personally I don't think it's a matter of respect for the dead. For me, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, it's more about to what extent you feel you are promoting the Third Reich by modelling subjects directly related to it.

Stewart

Which is a decision that you make after having sat down for a cuppa with your conscience and your morality. I applaud you for it, I would never dream of criticising your judgement in coming to that decision and I would defend your right to it. I have a differing view and I hope people would respect that...which, for the most part, they do.

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Wherever I got it from I have an ingrained admiration for anyone who will take on an equal or better equipped foe man to man in a fair fight but have never felt as comfortable with the sneak up behind them and blow them apart type of warfare no matter how much it makes sense if you want to win the war.

Beardie

I am with you on the mores of that one but of course the irony is that the square go, toe to toe dog fight with the better man winning, goes against all the fighter tactics taught from Ball, Richtofen and Boelke through WW2, Korea to today. The successful fighter pilot does not dogfight but engages before he is seen from a position of advantage, height and sun, hits his opponent before they know he is there and disengages to fight another day before the mates of the guy shot down can react.

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I think it's a good thing that your modeling is causing you to consider the morality of war .

Mission accomplished!

Personally after those considerations, I want to know why Mr. Tamiya doesn't bring the same exactitude to his line of paint as he does to his line of plastics ?... AND why doesn't QuickBoost produce the whole kit rather than just fixing other people's errors ???

Just imagine a 1/72 , QuickBoost Mk XIV Spitfire ..... Perfect !

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There was a very good diorama done of a Scandinavian MD-80 (I think) that lost both engines and

schmucked in quite hard without a fatality.

There were howls of outrage from the usual suspects but to me it was nothing more than a storm in a tea cup.

I think we tend to over think this to much. After all what we are doing is nothing more than sticking bits of plastic

together in the shape of an aircraft, ground pounder or boat to put on a shelf and get covered in dust.

I have a certain fondness for a Douglas product which is one of the most successful military aircraft ever produced

and they have,more than once, bought swift and gruesome death to many people, including country men of most members

of this site.

Now do I raise a glass in memory to my RN sailor brothers? Of course I do. Do I worry about it when I build another Hasegawa

rebox? Nope not a chance. Life's to short to get bogged down in the morality of what we may or may not offend.

Hanging a flag with a swastika on your wall or even worse effing around with your stinkin mobile phone during the last post

is disrespectful (and in the later case worthy of a flogging) Playing with our toys isnt.

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We won, they lost, and even though many of the enemy may have fought with honor, they fought for the wrong reasons.

Maybe to you they fought for wrong reasons but to them, at that time, maybe not. If only life was so black and white. Its easy to judge them on events not that long ago but lets face it most countries have a chequered past (or present) in some way. A past that we like to brush under the carpet when it suits.

Edited by Skids
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Hi, Tank152,

The "least Nazi-fied" German force was the Kriegsmarine; plenty of evidence of that. Second, it came the Heer; also, plenty of evidence. The Luftwaffe, and especially the Jagdflieger, were the dilect sons of the regime. Plenty of evidence of that also.

Fernando

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Hi, Tank152,

The "least Nazi-fied" German force was the Kriegsmarine; plenty of evidence of that. Second, it came the Heer; also, plenty of evidence. The Luftwaffe, and especially the Jagdflieger, were the dilect sons of the regime. Plenty of evidence of that also.

Fernando

Personally I'd say the SS topped the list, obviously, followed from what I've read, by probably those who served in the U-boats, which surely falls under the Kriegsmarine. I've got to disagree with you about the Luftwaffe, what makes you say that, just because of Goring? It is pretty well known that Goring was thought as as bit of a joke and was not generally liked by those in the Luftwaffe, especially from mid war onwards. I'm not saying there were no Nazis in the Luftwaffe obviously there would have been. You could of cause ague that at it's conception in 1933 many members of the NSFK of which were members of the Nazi party, were transferred into the Luftwaffe.

Tim.

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Personally, I do not turn away from modelling any particular subject, and will build whatever takes my fancy regardless of what it was used for. As an enthusiast of aviation I cannot help being a historian, and as such everything I build is a subject of history. My late father was in the Paras during the Second World War and in Palestine afterwards, and I do feel him frowning at me from up above when I look to build anything in Israeli colours. His time in Palestine led him to dislike Israel for the rest of his life, and I can understand why when I read of how groups such as the Stern gang operated. However, it does not stop me from modelling anything with a Star of David on it.

I have only once seen a model that I thought was in bad taste, and that was a diorama based on the famous photo of the Air France Concorde trailing flames. It was cleverly done with the flames and smoke admittedly, but still for me in bad taste.

I do get people in the shop looking for non-military subjects to buy, of which there are few, let's be honest, unless you want an airliner or a cruise ship. One person who wanted a Land Rover didn't want it in 'army paint', but was happy to buy it when I said they could paint whatever colour they want. And one person who looked at all the 1/35 armour subjects asked me why don't they make kits of tractors or bulldozers. They did agree with my assertion that in a choice between a JCB and a Challenger tank little Johnny would go for the tank almost every time, and which did they think was the most visually interesting subject anyway?

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Aren't we now in danger of trying to put labels on everything and allocating degrees of blameworthy-ness. Impossible. We might also be in danger of saying that it's acceptable to model a Welsh pit pony but not a Mongolian pony (of the Golden hordes).The pony goes where it's prodded. Religious-political symbols have been carried throughout history, be it the cross, crescent, swastika or star. They are fact and each a part of history.

There will always be those who will stir up national feelings to the point of pure hatred and mindless cruelty under the banner of some kind of superiority or grievance. Followers will range from the extreme zealots and psychopaths, the nationalist self seekers and those otherwise ordinary decent people from all levels, swept up with varying levels of patriotism or need or social coercion, to the conscripted and unwilling.

War is destructively horrible and unfortunately it sometimes allows the basest things to be unleashed and it is these which should never be forgiven or forgotten. Machines and their heraldry are just machines, they might have beauty of line, or awesome or quirky fascination And that's why we model them, and not for the politics of the plastic crews. You can't really deny history.

John

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The only model I've seen that didn't really look right was a small dio over on ML a few years back which was called, if my memory is correct "The Camp" which showed bodies heaped up on a railway wagon in a Concentration camp, it caused quite a stir but as the modeller that had done it said, it was only showing something that had happened.

Tim.

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The only model I've seen that didn't really look right was a small dio over on ML a few years back which was called, if my memory is correct "The Camp" which showed bodies heaped up on a railway wagon in a Concentration camp, it caused quite a stir but as the modeller that had done it said, it was only showing something that had happened.

Tim.

And if this same diorama was diplayed at the Holocaust Museum, it would provke thought and drive home its point in a way made acceptable merely offering it in a different context. The truth is, the event depicted happened, every day, day in, day out, for years and regardless of where the diorama is displayed, the historical facts remain the same.

That said, there are times when the expression of certain truths may be inappropriate, like when little Johnny is wandering about the show.

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And if this same diorama was diplayed at the Holocaust Museum, it would provke thought and drive home its point in a way made acceptable merely offering it in a different context. The truth is, the event depicted happened, every day, day in, day out, for years and regardless of where the diorama is displayed, the historical facts remain the same.

That said, there are times when the expression of certain truths may be inappropriate, like when little Johnny is wandering about the show.

Absolutely, I perhaps should have said that it wasn't something I'd have done, even if I could paint figures, I certainly wouldn't dream of saying such a topic like that shouldn't be done far from it.

Tim.

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