Question that's bugged me in terms of respect

[HL-10]

And if this same diorama was diplayed at the Holocaust Museum, it would provke thought and drive home its point in a way made acceptable merely offering it in a different context. The truth is, the event depicted happened, every day, day in, day out, for years and regardless of where the diorama is displayed, the historical facts remain the same.

That said, there are times when the expression of certain truths may be inappropriate, like when little Johnny is wandering about the show.

The Imperial War Museum in London had diorama of the ramp at Auschwitz in their Holocaust exhibition.

It was a very big model, and it was painted completely white.

Very moving, very thought provoking.

[JohnT]

Actually following this thread a thought occurred to me though not an answer for it.

I bet folks that ask why we build models of aircraft etc that are war machines don't think twice of watching gruesome horror movies, action films, murder who done its on the telly or reading all of the foregoing in novels. So why object to us modellers? Are are we not "mainstream" enough?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Maybe to you they fought for wrong reasons but to them, at that time, maybe not. If only life was so black and white. Its easy to judge them on events not that long ago but lets face it most countries have a chequered past (or present) in some way. A past that we like to brush under the carpet when it suits.

[Space Ranger]

Maybe to you they fought for wrong reasons but to them, at that time, maybe not. If only life was so black and white. Its easy to judge them on events not that long ago but lets face it most countries have a chequered past (or present) in some way. A past that we like to brush under the carpet when it suits.

World War II was "black and white." And while no country is perfect, the Allies were certainly on the right side. As my late cousins F1c Lawrence Woods and MM1c Winifred Woods, brothers from Wise County, Texas, both killed aboard USS Oklahoma at Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941, and my late cousin PFC Gail Mote, 507th PIR, 82nd Airborne Division, KIA Normandy, France, 6 June 1944, would tell you if they could.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Space Ranger

[paul178]

At #38 First printing in bold was a glitch in the computer or my use of it! Second all I was trying perhaps not successfully that the war has been over for 70 years and old enemies are now our friends and most were not even born during WW2 so respect does not really apply in my mind, it is a matter of History that should be remembered and learnt from so that it is not repeated. I see no problem in any one modelling on this subject. Take a look at the box art from our friends Airfix. Do they not show the model downing the opposition whether Allied or Axis?

BTW I sold and serviced Japanese photocopiers for 30 years and have a Lexus and a Honda.

John T I agree totally with you

Just one more point. Yes I am old and not probably in touch with the younger generation but I was disturbed by the gaming I saw at Christmas. My two young Grandchildren were playing with some sort of machine X Box or Playstation I have no idea about these things. It was a "game" which involved soldiers moving though a building and blowing the opposition to bits and this was all done on the living rooms 49" television. I think our hobby is calm and peaceful after that!

I hope my post clarifies my position and I have not upset any ones sensibilities.

[Bonehammer]

We won, they lost, and even though many of the enemy may have fought with honor, they fought for the wrong reasons.

There have been enough changes in society that even the reasons for fighting of one's own countrymen may sound foreign and wrong, in hindsight.

Furthermore, and pardon me if this strays outside the modelling topic, draft was the norm in those days. You could of course refuse to fight for your country because in doing so you'd be supporting a morally abominable regime, but that would mean facing a firing squad. Not everyone had the guts required: other dissenters might have donned the uniform and tried to minimize their contribution to the war effort to the strict minimum required to get home in one piece.

We haven't been subjected to the same propaganda as they were, and we benefit from instant access to such a multitude of viewpoints, it's overwhelming.

We like to think of ourselves as enlightened and look down on those villagers who lynched presumed "infectors" during the Great Plague. The sad reality is that if we had access to the same information that those villagers had, we'd behave in just the same way as they did.

[Scooby]

I'll build just about everything except a HE-111. I've had that as a silent rule since I was a child and still haven't built one. I've actually never told anyone this.

My parents grew up in the UK during the Battle of Britain. My mom in particular endured a lot of raids. I haven't ever wanted her to see a 111 displayed in any of my display cases.

I should add, my parents have never said a disparaging remark about Germany and its people. In no way have they influenced me in this thinking.

[Skids]

World War II was "black and white." And while no country is perfect, the Allies were certainly on the right side. As my late cousins F1c Lawrence Woods and MM1c Winifred Woods, brothers from Wise County, Texas, both killed aboard USS Oklahoma at Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941, and my late cousin PFC Gail Mote, 507th PIR, 82nd Airborne Division, KIA Normandy, France, 6 June 1944, would tell you if they could.

With all due respect I was not saying they were on the right side. If you actually read my post correctly I merely stated that at the time they probably thought they were doing right. Also my "black and white" statement was not aimed at WWll but more at the ability we have to label the axis military as a whole for its leaders ideals, as it is a relatively recent part of history yet forget our own countries misdemeanours because we can when it suits. I was in no way trying to belittle the war for anyone who lost family.

I have in the past had the privilege to speak to a couple of veterans and neither of the used the terms "right side" or "we won", but seemed very humble about it and had no ill towards faceless foe they faced ( both flew in Lancasters).

[Grayson]

World War II was "black and white." And while no country is perfect, the Allies were certainly on the right side. As my late cousins F1c Lawrence Woods and MM1c Winifred Woods, brothers from Wise County, Texas, both killed aboard USS Oklahoma at Pearl Harbor, 7 December 1941, and my late cousin PFC Gail Mote, 507th PIR, 82nd Airborne Division, KIA Normandy, France, 6 June 1944, would tell you if they could.

And your loss should be both remembered and respected. Lawrence and Winifred would have had no clue as to why they were under assault on that day. They would have fought because they had to and had no knowledge as to the reason why. Which I suppose is part of the point you addressed here. Not everyone fought for reasons that they understood and even those that did understand the reasons sometimes didn't fight because they believed in them. In a way, I find that even sadder. C'est la vite, c'est la guerre.

As with most wars, old men find good reason to send young men to die. And whilst young men find ideals and duty their companions in the night, those same old men find Brandy, cigars and a warm bed as their company. I don't think that it is a question of who was right, for me it's more about the simple fact that irrespective of how wrong war is, they did stand and they did fight and whilst some where villainous, some were chivalrous and we live by their gift to us, so the whole of the event should be remembered in some way.

Lest we forget.

[Bob Henry]

Thanks for posting this topic. If someone was so inclined they could take many of the thoughts expressed here and write an interesting book. I probably am aligned with the consensus on this one. However I do have a couple of additional thoughts. I try to keep in mind that overall the Germans have been very forthcoming about their history. The Japanese .... not so much... even to this day. Out of a kit stash of 100 aircraft I only have two Japanese aircraft. That's partly because they don't interest me that much and partly for the before mentioned reason. However I am in the process of re thinking this because of the historical roll that they played in the conflict. ( like I really need a larger kit stash ). Just as an interesting side note ...has anyone noticed that some of the new Subaru vehicles are painted a grey-green color that looks like the Japanese Zero color from the War ? Just wonderin' ... Bob

[Truro Model Builder]

There have been enough changes in society that even the reasons for fighting of one's own countrymen may sound foreign and wrong, in hindsight.

Furthermore, and pardon me if this strays outside the modelling topic, draft was the norm in those days. You could of course refuse to fight for your country because in doing so you'd be supporting a morally abominable regime, but that would mean facing a firing squad. Not everyone had the guts required: other dissenters might have donned the uniform and tried to minimize their contribution to the war effort to the strict minimum required to get home in one piece.

We haven't been subjected to the same propaganda as they were, and we benefit from instant access to such a multitude of viewpoints, it's overwhelming.

We like to think of ourselves as enlightened and look down on those villagers who lynched presumed "infectors" during the Great Plague. The sad reality is that if we had access to the same information that those villagers had, we'd behave in just the same way as they did.

I've known a couple of conscientous objectors, and while I used to be disdainful of how they felt, the fact that they did not shirk away from dangerous work has made me think differently. My father-in-law tells me of his father who originally declined to volunteer for the army on the same grounds, but then reasoned that if the Germans were marching down his street of course he'd take up arms to defend his family, so what was the difference if they were marching down someone else's street? He duly joined the army for the duration.

And you are very right in your last remark. We may not lynch people these days, but look at the hate mobs that form around suspected paedophiles or how Christopher Jefferies was treated in the press following the Joanna Yeates murder.

[The original Kit Builder]

There are a few who post in these parts who have seen active service since WW2 ended, some in places many of you will not have heard of. I am one of them. I suspect that all of us will have lost family and friends in wars and their familes deserve empathy and recognition of sacrifices made.

In my experience, warfare is never as black and white as some seem to believe. There are no winners and no "good guys and bad guys". There are people caught up in situations for which they can never have been prepared, set in motion by the statesmanship of ineptitude, jingoism, or the desire to seek power over another.

The latter is as near as it is possible to get to "bad guys". These individuals usually use rhetoric and weight of personality to exploit the tendency of groups of people to stop thinking for themselves and follow the mob, either through a skewed sense of loyalty to that person, or the percieved common interest, or through fear of marking themselves out.

This is exactly how Senator McCarthy was able to stir up such irrational paranoia in the USA in the 1950's and the ripples of his efforts are still being felt today.

If one takes the time to look beyond the recieved history of the delivered curriculum, one can arrive at a far more balanced and mature view of the reality of the world and recognise that both sides in a conflict have those who could be considered heroes and those who could be accused of the worst offences. Of course, it is true that certain ideologies and cultures have allowed the worst in human nature to flourish and at times almost every nation has had such. Some merely have different values not properly understood and which outsiders see as wrong, but which those subject to them are perfectly content with.

This thread is concerned with the morality of recreating, or not, miniatures connected to these ideologies and cultures and their place in history. If you only model one side of a conflict, that is of course only for you to reconcile, but you cannot tell the full story by doing so.

If you build only because you like the lines of a particular prototype, that's fine, too and no-one is to say that you are wrong, though in such a case, your interest lies outside the scope of questions of morality and firmly within the realm of pursuing a hobby for the pleasure it gives and both are equally valid.

For everyone concerned with wider implications, there is one who is not, but we, as modellers, should not have to justify an interest in the history of our subjects to anyone else. We offer a connection to events and people, often faceless and unremarked. The moral consequences of that history are for those who made it and those who ignore or deny the lessons it offers and the surest way to fall into that trap is to believe that only one side can be right.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Kit builder

[Doug Rogers]

I think that just about covers it...

[Alan P]

Kit builder - thank you very well put and should probably be the last word on an enlightening, if not particularly encouraging, thread.

[Artie]

IMHO, building scale models is a perfect way to keep those people memories alive. I try to avoid any political idea when building a model. For example: If I build a spanish civil war Polikarpov in republican service, I build its nationalist counterpart too...

I know lots of people who build scale tall ships like those you could see during the XVII century, spanish galleons, frigates, etc....they don't think about the fact that those ships were war machines and killed a lot of people....

Cheers

[Bob Henry]

There are a few who post in these parts who have seen active service since WW2 ended, some in places many of you will not have heard of. I am one of them. I suspect that all of us will have lost family and friends in wars and their familes deserve empathy and recognition of sacrifices made.

In my experience, warfare is never as black and white as some seem to believe. There are no winners and no "good guys and bad guys". There are people caught up in situations for which they can never have been prepared, set in motion by the statesmanship of ineptitude, jingoism, or the desire to seek power over another.

The latter is as near as it is possible to get to "bad guys". These individuals usually use rhetoric and weight of personality to exploit the tendency of groups of people to stop thinking for themselves and follow the mob, either through a skewed sense of loyalty to that person, or the percieved common interest, or through fear of marking themselves out.

This is exactly how Senator McCarthy was able to stir up such irrational paranoia in the USA in the 1950's and the ripples of his efforts are still being felt today.

If one takes the time to look beyond the recieved history of the delivered curriculum, one can arrive at a far more balanced and mature view of the reality of the world and recognise that both sides in a conflict have those who could be considered heroes and those who could be accused of the worst offences. Of course, it is true that certain ideologies and cultures have allowed the worst in human nature to flourish and at times almost every nation has had such. Some merely have different values not properly understood and which outsiders see as wrong, but which those subject to them are perfectly content with.

This thread is concerned with the morality of recreating, or not, miniatures connected to these ideologies and cultures and their place in history. If you only model one side of a conflict, that is of course only for you to reconcile, but you cannot tell the full story by doing so.

If you build only because you like the lines of a particular prototype, that's fine, too and no-one is to say that you are wrong, though in such a case, your interest lies outside the scope of questions of morality and firmly within the realm of pursuing a hobby for the pleasure it gives and both are equally valid.

For everyone concerned with wider implications, there is one who is not, but we, as modellers, should not have to justify an interest in the history of our subjects to anyone else. We offer a connection to events and people, often faceless and unremarked. The moral consequences of that history are for those who made it and those who ignore or deny the lessons it offers and the surest way to fall into that trap is to believe that only one side can be right.

Just as a note of historical clarification: Sen. McCarthy was largely correct. Recent information has come to light that proves his assertions about the large number of Communists that were active in the Entertainment industry, as well as other places. I do agree that he did not approach the issue in the proper manner. This is a touchy topic for me because I spent the best 6 years of my life trying to keep our freedoms alive during the "Cold" war. I still will continue to enjoy modeling aircraft ( and some armor ) from all of the various time periods but I probably won't be building any Nuclear Subs ... I spent too much time on board one of them.

[sroubos]

I'm pretty sure I'm a communist based on McCarthy's definition of the word

I suppose it's a natural reaction when we are under threat to find labels to slap on people so we can focus our fear, anger and mistrust on them. It happens through the ages.

[Truro Model Builder]

Just as a note of historical clarification: Sen. McCarthy was largely correct. Recent information has come to light that proves his assertions about the large number of Communists that were active in the Entertainment industry, as well as other places.

Do you have a link to the information? Remember that the entertainment industry was investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee, which was a separate investigation from McCarthy's work. As a senator McCarthy would not have been involved with a House of Representatives committee, although it is certainly true to say that they were certainly inspired by him, and it does not take away from the fact that it was his name that became synonymous with the whole anti-communist hysteria of that period of US history. Furthermore the word McCarthyism nowadays has nothing other than negativity attached to it.

And I would agree with sroubos. According to McCarthyist philosophy we would probably all be defined as communists.

But now we are getting political, and I think we ought to get back to making models and discussing their moral aspects. Besides, this is not the Cold war forum!

Edited May 16, 2015 by T7 Models

[Bob Henry]

Do you have a link to the information? Remember that the entertainment industry was investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee, which was a separate investigation from McCarthy's work. As a senator McCarthy would not have been involved with a House of Representatives committee, although it is certainly true to say that they were certainly inspired by him, and it does not take away from the fact that it was his name that became synonymous with the whole anti-communist hysteria of that period of US history. Furthermore the word McCarthyism nowadays has nothing other than negativity attached to it.

And I would agree with sroubos. According to McCarthyist philosophy we would probably all be defined as communists.

But now we are getting political, and I think we ought to get back to making models and discussing their moral aspects. Besides, this is not the Cold war forum!

As far as a link to some additional information... check the book "Blacklisted by History" (M. Stanton Evans) ... documented information. I just wish that I had more solid information on the proper VVS colors for the Soviet aircraft. I was fortunate enough to see one of the Soviet PO2 Bi planes flying at an air show a few hours ago.

[Grayson]

Blacklisted History is a defense of McCarthy that seeks to vindicate him by being careful with the evidence. It's a good read...so is The Hobbit and I still don't believe in Elves.

[MilneBay]

Deleted - political view

Edited May 17, 2015 by Greg B

[dragonlanceHR]

As far as a link to some additional information... check the book "Blacklisted by History" (M. Stanton Evans) ... documented information. I just wish that I had more solid information on the proper VVS colors for the Soviet aircraft. I was fortunate enough to see one of the Soviet PO2 Bi planes flying at an air show a few hours ago.

Do you still wish to have more solid information on VVS colours? Check here.

Regarding the topic, had the angst at one time, moved on since. The only model I probably will not build is Heydrich's Emil, because I personally detest the man.

Most of us know more about the conflict than the average self-righteous person that might get offended by the subject we built. Most of the time it's not worth explaining it to them tho.

Vedran

[Giorgio N]

A couple of random thoughts after reading some more posts in this thread. Thread that is been conducted with great inputs from all.

WW2, a war in black and white ? It may be seen as such if we look at the Nazi establishment desire of expansion at the expenses of other peoples that in their view were inferior and therefore had to be either enslaved or exterminated. However WW2 was not one single war, it was the result of a number of different wars fought at the same time through different alliances. From an Italian perspective, the entry in the war was simply aimed at claiming influence over a number of territories, some of which had been promised to Italy by the Allies in return for the intervention in WW1 and were never granted, others were someone else's colony that Mussolini believed should have been under Italian control. The motivations were not much different from the war with Turkey in 1911 or many other small wars in the late 19th Century. For Japan the main goal was similar: to expand influence by removing asian territories from European or American control and bringing these under Japanese control.

Granted, none of the Italian or Japanese motivations can be morally held in very high regard, but while say Japan had no moral ground to want to control and exploit part of Asia, what moral ground had the US, UK, France and Holland for controlling and exploiting those same territories ? The fact that they had conquered them before ? Of course we can safely say that in any case Mussolini and the Japanese had not grasped that by the 1930's the era of colonies was coming to an end, something that however even other colonial powers took a few more years to understand.

While we may look at WW2 as a clash between ideologies with different sets of values, this was only partially true in Europe. In other parts of the world it was the more usual economical reasons that triggered the events. And even in Europe, the Allies had no problem in supporting regimes that were not much different from the ones they were fighting. Many historians say that Mussolini made only one error, enter the war. Had Italy remained neutral, the UK would have rewarded this in the same way as Spain and Portugal were, if not more. Even if all these countries had fascist regimes.

How could such a nice person be a Nazi or most soldiers were not Nazis and similar: the personality of each person may or not have something to do with her/his political views, even the most extreme ones. Not all Nazis were psychopaths and some important Nazi personalities were described by all as nice people and caring fathers, yet they had no issue in sending milions to death. Why couldn't a Luftwaffe pilot be himself a nice person even if a devout Nazi party follower ?

Besides, if we disregard the racial issue (more on this later..), what did the Nazi preach? They affirmed that Germany had to return to being a great country, that the Germans had to take pride in their nation. That the country had to have strong armed forces to be able to impose them in the world and that everybody had to respect the forces. That order, discipline and dedication were the key to a successful society and that democracy was weak and the guide of the right people was better at leading the Country. We may agree or not with these views, but a lot of them are not too different from what we hear saying every day by people who live in democracies and I've read many posts on this same forum that expressed very similar views.

Now the race issue: we all know what the racial views of the Nazi regime caused. What however many here may not realise is that the same views also caused the Germans to behave very differently depending on who they were fighting. Pilot XXY may have been a true gentleman when dealing with a shot down British pilot, but how would he have behaved with a Russian pilot ? The British were mostly seen as part of the same Arian race, so much that Hitler more than once expressed the view that Britain and Germany could have ruled the world together, with continental Europe for himself and the oceans and the colonies for Britain. The French however were already treated very differently. Peoples from the mediterranean ranked even lower. Then there were the untermenschen like the Slavs... and finally those that only deserved extermination. Now it's easy to be treated well when the enemy see you as an equal, very different when they see you as an inferior. British pilots were mainly hosted in prison camps with relatively good facilities and properly fed, pilots and soldiers from other countries were sent directly to labour camps where thousands died of exhaustion or starvation.

Not that the racial issue only affected Nazi Germany, it is indeed a general human attitude ! Richard Holmes explored the aspect of the relation between the British Army soldier and his enemies in most books he wrote on the different eras and one aspect is present throughout history: some enemies are seen as equal, some are not. A French cavalry officer may have been an enemy in Napoleonic times, but he was seen as an equal. An Indian was an inferior. They may have all been enemies, but the captured French officer would have been invited to the officer's mess and offered a sip, the Indian would have been shot on the spot. Race again played a part in those days, other aspects may have played their part in different days, but the fact remains: we may be nice to our enemies sometimes, but may be the worst savages with different people at other times.

Now would this change my view about building a model of the aircraft of this or that personality ? Absolutely not ! I know I'm building a model of a war machine, I can't pretend to "select" the nice pilots from the not so nice, they were all fighting a war, and in war the worst aspect of someone's personality are likely to come out, given the circumstance and the enemy.

A general observation on the men we admire for their role in wars: we enthusiasts often make the mistake of associating good human qualities to our "heroes". The reality however is that the people we may admire for their part in History are not necessarily nice in their private life. Some may have been, but others were simply not nice, some were just arrogant people, some would have fought for whoever gave them money. We should always keep achievements and personalities separate. Being an ace doesn't mean being a person able to refuse a $2.4m bribe... should I or not build a model of Showtime 100 ?

[Pete610]

Back to the OP - I do not build certain Aces steeds - as although I admire pilots like Johnnie Johnson and Adolf Galland - they are not 'heroes' - just guys doing a (tough) job...and not members of the modern 'cult of celebrity' we see in the modern world

My philosphy is to build machines I admire - either technically or visually - and/or machines I have seen/rode on/flown in/worked on/jumped out of - etc...

otherwise I would also have too many kits in the stash, if I didn't

[RUhavingfun]

I believe that this photo goes a long way to put "respect " in perspective.

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/News%20Stories%20H/Johnny%20Typhoon/Colton30.jpg

Johnny Colton and Oscar Bösch standing beside Oscar’s glider (OB for Oscar Bôsch) in the summer of 1978, at Sherbrooke, Québec. During the war, each of these two fine men would have done everything in their power to kill the other but, after the war, they were able to put aside the war and build a long and lasting friendship. Every 1 January at 0910 hrs, the hour of the Bodenplatte attack on Eindhoven, they would call each other on the telephone. Photo: John Baert Collection

This friendship is in no way unique