Dunkirk Spitfires.

[stevej60]

Afternoon folks,just pondering the upcoming BoB GB and we have the anniversary of operation Dynamo coming shortly so I

thought it would be nice to mark it with a quick build,I have a couple of Spitfire,s (Airfix Mk1) going nowhere and although I am

aware they were not used in great numbers I have in the decal stash markings for Al Deere,s KL-B and have found a couple of

profiles of N3180 which was downed on the beach on 28th May they show no serial worn which would make life easier for me

any issues or other aircraft suggestions would be appreciated.

[tonyot]

Don`t forget to apply black and white halved undersides,...some Spits had Aluminium under the nose and fuselage/ tail so look out for that when you are checking reference photos.

Cheers

Tony

[stevej60]

Don`t forget to apply black and white halved undersides,...some Spits had Aluminium under the nose and fuselage/ tail so look out for that when you are checking reference photos.

Cheers

Tony

Thank,s Tony the profile in question is in that scheme.I was puzzled to see no serial applied yet quoted by the profile,s poster.

[Peter Roberts]

I'm planning a similar build for a Spitfire flown by Gordon Olive and finding a bit of a can of worms.

One issue is the landing gear retraction mechanism - dose it retain the initial pump action mechanism or were they replaced by the more typical lever arrangement seen in Spitfires? These later type of mechanisms were coming into use around this time. Associated with the earlier type of undercarriage retraction mechanism is the fluid tank just visible at the rear of the cockpit, posted on an earlier discussion here.

Then there is the aerial - early pole or later broader style. Pitot - early twin prong or replaced with later single prong? Liklely three blade prop, armoured windscreen, but early flat top canopy or bulged-top canopy? Gun ports - open or covered? With what? I noticed with Olives plane that the squadron codes have been changed and painted in a smaller font to the aircraft code letter too - not sure that this applies to Deeres Spitfire though.

I don't have my research to hand so these are off the top of my head. Hopefully Edgar will be along shortly to clarify and correct me.

PR

[stevej60]

Peter it,s always a large can of worms when we are talking about Spitfire,s flown by iconic pilots like Deere,looking round the net most modeler,s

seem to have the latter aerial pole and even an all sky under surface on what I believe was Kiwi 1 the aircraft in question,however I have seen

an original B&W photo which to me shows the early pole:

http://www.spitfirepv270.co.nz/photo12.jpg .

Sadly the photo does not confirm the lower colours hopefully Edgar can give us definitive(if there is such a thing on the spitfire) evidence.

[FalkeEins]

.. this the one always represented with the kiwi emblem under cockpit - is there a photo of that ?

[Troy Smith]

Peter it,s always a large can of worms when we are talking about Spitfire,s flown by iconic pilots like Deere,looking round the net most modeler,s

seem to have the latter aerial pole and even an all sky under surface on what I believe was Kiwi 1 the aircraft in question,however I have seen

an original B&W photo which to me shows the early pole:

http://www.spitfirepv270.co.nz/photo12.jpg .

Sadly the photo does not confirm the lower colours hopefully Edgar can give us definitive(if there is such a thing on the spitfire) evidence.

Steve, IIRC you have the Ducimus Camo Guide?

The two schemes relevant to the photos below are the two Black/White split schemes lower right, captioned 'official undersurface' and 'standard factory finish'

This early 1940, I've seen it as March, maybe earlier. 54 got Rotol prop planes a little later,

No fin flash or yellow ring fuse, so before may 1940.

This plane black/white wings. note the port uc door is black, as is the oil cooler. Note the aluminium aileron on the starboard wing.

Question , colour of undernose and rear fuselage. under nose looks white, rear fuse and tailplanes are dark.

'standard factory finish' with repainted nose?

.. this the one always represented with the kiwi emblem under cockpit - is there a photo of that ?

I think there are two, maybe 3 Spitfires from 1940 that were marked like this.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/63820-54-sqd-kiwi-ii-detail-questions/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27948-al-deere-spitfire-mk-i/

also

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=24240

this has been discussed, as it's has a Rotol prop, unusual for Spitfires of this era, though 54 was equipped with early examples of the Rotol prop.

The non standard fuselage roundel is of note.

IIRC there is a pic of a later Kiwi, with a De Havilland prop, which 54 used during the Battle.

Steve, this most likely round Dunkirk. Why? yellow ring on fuse roundel, introduced early May 1940 IIRC, but, while hard to make out, I think this shows the black/white/aluminium underside scheme.

Note underwing rad is clearly visible, but under the cowling and fuselage is dark, if was Sky, then you'd see a similar tone to the rad, also in shadow, but you don't. So darker colour, fits with the 'standard factory finish'

Bit more searching.

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=51285

Right Steve, one of Deere's planes was brought down on Dunkirk beach, and burnt out. It has a metal bladed rotol prop, so is most likely the plane above.

Al Deere's 'Kiwi' N3180 KL-B which I believe was his first of quite a few 'Kiwi's

he brought it down on the Dunkirk (I think) beaches on 28 May 1940

the aircraft burnt out afterwards

These are all from Ebay Germany auctions of German photos BTW, which have been a great source of marking information from this era!

other side

There are shots of what is reported to be another 54 Sq plane, which show non standard underwing roundel, added at squadro level, as aircraft operataing over France were supposed to have these. There are more shots in the links.

Note thin yellow ring on roundel on black wing. if 'standard' or 'factory' undersides? don't know.

Edgar posted this in link,

The May 1st., 1940 order was for yellow circles to be added to the fuselage roundels, not underneath.

On May 11th., repeated on the 15th., an order was issued for underwing roundels to be painted (without any yellow.)

On June 2nd., an order was issued to paint the undersides all Sky, with underwing roundels being thereby completely painted out.

On June 12th., a signal stated that, due to a shortage of Sky, the black/white scheme might still be seen, and the roundel under the black port wing was to have a yellow ring added, which must not encroach onto the ailerons or hinges.

On June 14th., units (including the Civilian Repair Organisation) were told that the black/white scheme could be overpainted by a maximum of two coats of Sky, but (due to balance considerations, which units were not equipped to deal with) that did not include ailerons, which should have the original paint washed off before application of Sky.

On August 11th., apparently due to some units having painted them anyway, an order gave tacit approval for underwing roundels to reappear.

finally, links on 54 sq having Rotol props

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?87258-Spitfire-Mk-I-II-and-IIa-s-Prop-fittings

in great detail. Note comments on beach wreck photos.

[FalkeEins]

thanks a lot Troy, looks like Ted Hooten's SAM article is worth a read here too...

[Stew Dapple]

I think Al Deere flew three different Spitfires with the "Kiwi" badge... The first, the one which he crash-landed at Dunkirk, should definitely not have a Sky underside - too early - but as Tony says either fully Night/White or Night/White wings with the nose underside and lower rear fuselage in Aluminium. You can probably choose either without too much fear of contradiction

It does appear that early in the war for a period serials were overpainted so it is possible this was the case with N3180.

As for alternatives the recent Xtradecals Spitfire set contains markings for a Dunkirk Spitfire and I think the 74 Squadron aircraft included in their older BoB RAF set is one too.

Cheers,

Stew

[DominikS]

When using recent Xtradecal set be careful. The GR-U scheme has an error. The shape of the letter G is incorrect. It's a bit better than, for example, Model Alliance but still wrong. So far the only decal that shows the correct shape is DP Caspar "Forgotten Operations - Dynamo 1940" with GR-G. I can't understand why people make the same mistake all the time.

[daniele0865]

In this picture ( http://s713.photobucket.com/user/rewdco/media/article-1326171-0BE40312000005DC-730_634x488.jpg.html),found on http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=51285, that it's been identified as Al Deere spitfire beached on Dunkirk, the under nose cowling appear to be half black-half white splitted.

Unfortunately from this series of pictures it's impossible to determine if the KIWI emblem was present. There is a picture on Brendon Deere's book "Spitfire: Return to Flight" showing a rotol equipped KL-B without emblem on the starbord side. I couldn't find pictures of the port side.

Another unresolved question is if the Dunkirk crash landed KL-B wore underwing roundels, as other photos of spitfire relics on Dunkirk beaches in May 1940 show these roudels.

If someone has more infos, is welcome.

Daniele

[Peter Roberts]

I am not able to access my notes this week, but my memory also prompts me re: the serial numbers.

When these were overpainted in early 1940, they were re-applied to the fin in small characters (4"? or possibly 2"? Sorry, memory fails at present) I think they may also have been on the rudder, but those on the fin were obviously obliterated when the fin flash was eventually applied. Again, not sure if this applies to Deeres a/c

PR

[stevej60]

.. this the one always represented with the kiwi emblem under cockpit - is there a photo of that ?

Yea,the kiwi decals are on the sheet.

[stevej60]

Thanks everyone I am leaning towards the profile with the none standard fuselage with B&W undersides if I can replicate that roundel

and I may have the 74sqn markings left from my BoB sheet,again superb info from Troy,but thanks to each and everyone for the information.

[stevej60]

Hi folks,I,m primed ready for paint so can I run this past you for your thoughts,Black and white under surfaces seems correct do I go with aluminum

portions where applicable or not? underwing roundels or not? and the kit is the single Dw-k boxing do I need the blunt spinner from their other boxing

as I have a few in the spares box.TIA.

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Steve,

Black & white under surfaces, definitely... Aluminium, mmm... possibly, ideally a picture reference will advise but if you have none then it is a matter for your personal taste/conscience

Underwing roundels were prescribed for all fighter aircraft operating over France, so almost certainly safe to assume yours would have them.

Pointy de Havilland spinner most likely by some distance unless references conclusively indicate otherwise.

Cheers,

Stew

[stevej60]

Thank,s Stew,it,s a bit of a minefield,roundels standard or yellow circle round the black wing and then there,s the strange position shown on

some of the squadrons other Aircraft shown on the beach after crashing!

[Stew Dapple]

Yes it is tricky, and in some places going to either have to make your best guess and hope it is right, or not build them... not much you can do about that really. I can't see an enormous heap of new pictures suddenly being discovered that will clarify everything

Cheers,

Stew

[stevej60]

Quite right about not building them Stew,we would get nothing done if we wait for definitive pictures if I can get it 90% right that,ll do me.

[Edgar]

When the fin flashes were added, if they covered those serial numbers which had been painted on the fin, the (1") numbers were often moved to the top of the fin, above the flashes, making them virtually invisible.
Roundels were ordered to be added to the undersides of all fighters (previously it was only for fighters operating over France) from 15-5-40.

The yellow surround to the port roundel was not ordered until 4-6-40 (the day the Dunkirk evacuation ended,) so I'd be wary of the Dunkirk beach photo apparently showing it, since it was supposed to be no less than a quarter, and no more than the same, width as the blue band. It could simply be where someone has washed off the black, to make painting the roundel that much easier.

I have found no evidence of factories being ordered to paint the whole underside black and white, in fact, in mid-May 1939, they were told that the black and white should align with the leading and trailing edges of the wings.

However, 14-11-39 an A.M.O. amendment was issued, which appeared to say that the whole underneath should be black and white, and it was followed 21-11-39 by a signal from Sholto-Douglas, to Commands, giving the same (erroneous) impression. Little wonder so many variations were seen.

[Troy Smith]

Roundels were ordered to be added to the undersides of all fighters (previously it was only for fighters operating over France) from 15-5-40.

The yellow surround to the port roundel was not ordered until 4-6-40 (the day the Dunkirk evacuation ended,) so I'd be wary of the Dunkirk beach photo apparently showing it, since it was supposed to be no less than a quarter, and no more than the same, width as the blue band. It could simply be where someone has washed off the black, to make painting the roundel that much easier.

from, http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=51285#entry580623 linked above.

This has a pale outer ring. presumably yellow.

another shot of the other Spitfire shown on page 1

consistent in proportion and position. Done as 'standard' at unit or base level?

Thank,s Stew,it,s a bit of a minefield,roundels standard or yellow circle round the black wing and then there,s the strange position shown on

some of the squadrons other Aircraft shown on the beach after crashing!

The tip positioning of the roundel is seen on other Sptfires, and Hurricanes, Edgar had suggested that this is a sign of a Squadron level repaint, it being easier to get to the tips IIRC.

As far it being a minefield Steve, you either have to go with a documented scheme, which limits your choice, of apply best guess from the information supplied.

One of the best for documentation is this, see page 2

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968742-hugh-falkus-spitfire-was-serial-numbers-to-codes/

There are some vague areas, but in general there were rules that were obeyed, while there are several variations of the fuselage yellow ring and fin stripes, they were being applied. The variations are between squadrons, but rarely in a squadron.

From a collection of models perspective documenting the variations makes for interesting models.

cheers

T

[stevej60]

Thanks again Troy and Edgar, It will be a best guess finish then from the information supplied.

[James Taylor]

I am currently reading Alfred Price's "Air Battle Dunkirk" and in it (pg 21) Deere is quoted as saying that his Spit (along with the rest of 54) had the rotol prop on trial at the time.

I quite fancy modelling his plane myself - I have the decals for it on the Hornchurch IPMS Battle of Britain decal sheet - it also includes Malan's ZP*A.

James

[Graham Boak]

Indeed, but note that this was the magnesium Rotol prop not the more familiar wooden one.

[Procopius]

Indeed, but note that this was the magnesium Rotol prop not the more familiar wooden one.

How would this be visibly different from the later wooden prop?