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Spitfire Mk. Vb, no longer No. 322 Sqn, and the 1/48 Airfix kit. Now with new questions.


Creepy Pete

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Hello folks,

My turn to ask the same old questions again about Spitfires. :rolleyes:

I'm looking into building a Spitfire Mk. Vb as used by No. 322 Squadron, using the Airfix kit. I have some decals for these, with a few options, but unfortunatly some of the details aren't mentioned. I did some searching, but couldn't find much. I did see some flight sim skins and profiles that suggests clipped wings on at least one of them, but I have no idea how accurate that would be.

What I'm basically asking is, can I build any of the following Vb's, using what's in the Airfix kit?

BM354, VL-A

W3127, VL-P

AB818, VL-N

BM515, VL-P

AA967, VL-A

WW2 stuff isn't one of my stronger subjects, and I see 3 different kinds of canopies, two different kind of props, 3 different sets of exhausts, etc. It is kinda confusing sometimes. :D

Anyway, if someone could assist me a bit on this, I would be very grateful.

Thanks!

Edited by Creepy Pete
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Hi!

The short answer is yes.

But the very nature of the Spitfire and it's multitude of changes, the one item I need to stress is to get an image of the a/c you wish to build and build from that. Changes with the Vb are offhand does it have external or internal armor glass? 4 or 5 spoke wheels? rectangular or spherical rearveiw mirror...... Where these upgraded LF.Vbs?

See what I mean?

Bruce

Edited by Bruce Archer
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Thanks.

Yes, I did a little more research on this and came to pretty much the same conclusion. So far, I haven't found any pic that can answer all these questions on any of the above mentioned planes. There are a few shots that show the windscreen and canopy, but no clue to which plane it is, for example. Quite frustrating.

Ah well, I can still work on the cockpit in the mean time. It might even turn out that the decals are not correct anyway. All the squadron code decals are grey, and I'm not sure if that's correct. You'd think at least some of them would be Sky.

Thanks again for the reply.

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"It might even turn out that the decals are not correct anyway. All the squadron code decals are grey, and I'm not sure if that's correct. You'd think at least some of them would be Sky."

The Rule of Thumb is that Dark Earth/Dark Green airframes have Grey codes, and Ocean Grey/Dark Green aircraft have Sky codes. There are - as always - exceptions.

Edited by Pilot Officer Prune
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Well, either there were a lot of exeptions to the rule, or I have a sheet that is basically useless, with in total 45 possible options, all in the grey/green scheme, and various marks, with only grey code decals given.

:frantic:

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But the very nature of the Spitfire and it's multitude of changes... Changes with the Vb are offhand does it have external or internal armor glass? 4 or 5 spoke wheels? rectangular or spherical rearveiw mirror...... Where these upgraded LF.Vbs?

"African, or European?"

Arthur

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Hi!

The short answer is yes.

But the very nature of the Spitfire and it's multitude of changes, the one item I need to stress is to get an image of the a/c you wish to build and build from that. Changes with the Vb are offhand does it have external or internal armor glass? 4 or 5 spoke wheels? rectangular or spherical rearveiw mirror...... Where these upgraded LF.Vbs?

See what I mean?

Bruce

Did Mk. Vs have 4-spoke wheels? Thought they were 5-spoke, or was this a late-war re-fit?

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Did Mk. Vs have 4-spoke wheels? Thought they were 5-spoke, or was this a late-war re-fit?

No, they didn't, at least not until there were none left (post-war.) Even the Mk. IX was only supposed to get them in extreme (e.g. bomb-carrying) circumstances, though the VIII & XIV got them from the start.
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Now that 322 Sqn is out of the question, I'm thinking about doing a 402 Sqn one.

I have this sheet on its way to me: Click me

My plan is to do AB910 from the sheet, in 402 Sqn. markings. I understand that it currently still flies with the BBMF, so one side that's nice, but on the other side, it probably had a whole lot of modifications during the years. From what I could find so far on how AB910 was during the war, is that it had clipped wings, Mk.IX type exhausts and that the profile of the Aeromaster sheet is correct, markings wise. I assume it had the Rotol prop, and I'm guessing that the windscreen was like this. The image shows George Lawson, the pilot who flew AB910 on D-Day, with a 402 Sqn Mk.V.

Now about those exhausts. AB910 flew in civil markings for a while after the war as G-AISU, and it had the Mk.IX type exhausts too at that time. See pic below. Would it be safe to assume that during the war it would have the same ones as on the pic, namely the round type, or would the flat type be more likely?

5-AB910Hendon21July1951100a.jpg

I understand that in the book "Spitfires-The Canadians" Vol. 1, by Robert Bracken, there is a photo of a couple 402 Sqn Spitfire Mk.V's lined up. Does anyone have that book, and is the photo clear enough to give some more information on this?

I noticed that the Hasegawa/Revell Spitfire Mk.IX/XVI has two sets of exhausts, I might try to fit those on the Airfix kit.

Alright, that's it for now. Thanks in advance!

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I've been through "Spitfires - The Canadians" both volumes without finding such a picture. Mk.XIVs, yes. The only picture of a 402 Sq Mk.V that might be useful shows the triple exhausts, with the tube for cockpit heating simply exhausting straight aft, but there's no indication of date. Peter Caygill's "Spitfire Mk.V In Action" has a useful history of AB901 but the only hint as to its fit is the mention of an M-suffix engine, which I'm afraid just means it became an LF Mk.Vb, which I think we knew already. Clipped wings are most likely here, although not universal, but the exhausts were not normally changed. Only a few aircraft are seen with the 6-a-side, but here I suggest that the tube exhaust was too late for the LF Mk.V, and that they would have the fishtails. What was universal according to Caygill were the two strengthening strips above the wheel wells. I don't know whether the kit provides these.

EDIT: Title stated in full.

Edited by Graham Boak
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Circular exhaust stubs were a post-war addition to the Griffon engine, and they eventually found their way onto Merlins.

6-stub exhausts are unlikely on a wartime U.K.-based V, since the outer Browning compartments needed the heat supplied by the augmenter tubes fitted through the 3-branch exhausts. Certainly, in May 1949, AB910 had triple exhausts (and wingtips.)

Right at the end of the war Middle East Vs could have 6-branch exhausts, but that was possibly due to them being used at low level by then, and the extra heat wouldn't have been so important.

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The low-level argument will also apply to the 1944 use of UK-based LF Mk.Vb, given that the engine lacked power above 12000ft; particularly seeing that one photo I found in Robert Bracken's books showed the augmenter tubes disconnected. I came across one photograph of a UK-based LF Mk.V with the 6-stub exhausts whilst looking through the references above, which just shows that "unlikely" (which I entirely agree with) can just mean "rarely".

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Thank you both for your posts. I'll go with the standard Mk.V type exhausts then. And Lawson himself was quoted that he flew a clipped wing AB910 Spit on D-Day in this RAF publication, so that's pretty clear too.

Moving on to the windscreen. As it is today, and has been since at least the 60's, it has the type seen here. I can't quite make out what it was as G-AISU as seen on the pic in my previous post, but it might be this type, without the armored bit in front of it? Other Spits with a serial close to it, like AB931 here had the shorter, rounder windscreen. Were these different types of windscreens easy to swap? Seems to be that the bit of the fuselage on which it is mounted, is slightly different too. Or is this just a matter of some bolts and plates?

Once again, thanks in advance. I never thought that building something so simple could be such a puzzle. It's quite frustrating sometimes, but also good fun. :)

Edited by Creepy Pete
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Fitting of internally-armoured screens started in April, 1941, and AB910 was built in August 1942; the May 1949 photo shows it with the internally-armoured screen, as well.

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Any chance you could post that May 1949 photo, Edgar? Or PM it?

The photo is tiny, about 3" x 1", so might not reproduce, and is in a supplement "Spitfires on the Wing," issued with Flypast magazine in March 2002, so there's copyright to consider as well. Add to that, I don't have the faintest idea how to add photos to a PM, but, if you PM me, with an E-mail address, I'll see what I can do.

There are actually two photos in the supplement, and in one dated April 1997, the later windscreen is plain to see.

6-stub exhausts were pretty much standard on the special LF.Vbs

According to the A.P., L.F.Vs had "M"-suffixed engines, 45M, 50M, and 55M, and AB910 was not fitted with a Merlin 45M until after Air Commodore Wheeler acquired her post-war.
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I can't quite make out what it was as G-AISU as seen on the pic in my previous post...

Seems to be that the bit of the fuselage on which it is mounted, is slightly different too. Or is this just a matter of some bolts and plates?

The actual fuselage skin remained (at least for a long time) shaped to meet the early type windscreen, and there was a plate (obvious in your link to the recent colour photo) to fit the new flat-sided windscreen to the fuselage.

I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that may be a PR type windscreen in the civil-paint photo.

bob

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AB910 must have had an M engine during the war, or else it would not have been an LF and as such would not have flown combat as it did with the LF MK.Vb squadrons. Caygill dates the fitting of an M engine at 3501 SU after delivery on 8th June 1943. He provides a much more thorough history of the aircraft's service than the limited account in Spitfire The History. There may be more in other references such as Air Britain serials books or the Survivors tome.

I'm unsure what is meant (post 18) by "special LF Mk.Vs", they were a standardised type. There are also many photos of LF Mk.Vbs with 3-stub exhausts in Caygill's book, indeed a majority. The 6-a-side arrangement does not seem to have appeared until into 1944, and appears mainly in his chapter on the Deanland wing, which was not formed until April 1944. This needn't imply that none existed at Perranporth before this, but none appear in his choice of photographs to illustrate this time.

Edited by Graham Boak
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Six-stack exhausts were certainly part of the "package" (more of a buffet, really) of performance improving mods for Mk.Vs, but it does appear that for some reason they weren't always used. Supply, perhaps?

bob

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Supermarine show them as being specifically for the V Tropical; they also show the 45M as only being fitted from April 1944, the 50M from June, and the 55M from November. Also, from August, the V needed strengthened engine mountings to cope with the "M" type engines, with the work mandated to be done as soon as the engine was fitted.

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As you say, STH quotes the multiple ejector exhausts for the VT at 4.43, but this as clearly not obeyed. Perhaps this is a case of being initially only for the Tropical but later eased?

Unfortunately, you've lost a year from the M rated engines - STH shows them for the months you mention but 1943, which for the 45M is consistent with the date quoted in Caygill for the work on 12 Group aircraft to be done at 3501 SU Coltishall. For example 118 Sq 14-19 June 1943.

I have wondered if the 6-stub exhaust was a sign of the 55M engine, but perhaps that's too simple.

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Unfortunately, you've lost a year from the M rated engines - STH shows them for the months you mention but 1943, which for the 45M is consistent with the date quoted in Caygill for the work on 12 Group aircraft to be done at 3501 SU Coltishall.

I haven't lost a year, StH has gained one, since they have a habit of quoting the dates when the Local Technical Committee simply discussed an item, while I quote the date, in the Vickers works ledger, when the item was "cleared" for production.

for production. In the case of the exhausts, it was 14-1-44 Special Order Only and retrospective; the engine was also Special Order Only, though leaflets were issued to the Service in July 1943.

For example 118 Sq 14-19 June 1943.

According to "Fighter Squadrons," 118 used the L.F.Vb from March 1944.
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