Dayglo Orange and Fire Orange

[John B (Sc)]

Help please.

A query chaps & chapesses, partly brought on by the new Airfix Gnats.

RAF/RN Dayglo.

My memory is that the early dayglo colour used as in large spray on areas on Gnats and JPs in the Sixties was 'Dayglo Orange'.

Later on the dayglo, especially that used as rectangular strips of fluorescent material stuck onto, for example, Canberras, Valettas, Meteor TT14s and some JPs was 'Dayglo Fire Orange' (I use the Humbrol paint titles, since that is what I had, and have still.)

I know the Fire Orange was a bright, red orange colour, because I still have a small part of a roll of it here, courtesy of a service detachment to my flying club many years ago,

Old slides of mine do show a much more orange hue on the large areas of Gnat and Jet Provost aircraft.

Am I right that there were two doifferent hues?

Did the FAA use the Dayglo Orange variant on its Vapmire two seaters? I have a faded shot of the Vampire at RN Fulmar in the early Sixties (Lossiemouth) which suggests yes, although my memory of their Hunter two seaters is of a very red orange triangle on the wings. So perhaps the FAA used 'Dayglo Fire Orange' throughout?

If I am right that the shade generally used changed, when was that? I have a feeling that only the red variant is easily sourced today, either in full size or in model quantities, which distorts what we see (and 'remember'!).

The early paint faded very fast, to a yellowish green or yellow-white hue if left exposed to daylight too long. That hasn't helped my recollection, and may be distorting my memory.

Any comments?

Regards,

John B

[Graham Boak]

The orange variety faded too quickly, appearing very yellow and patchy, so was superseded by the red/dark pink variety. Fire Orange and Flame Red were how I remember the names, though I can't swear to that. I'm pretty sure that the FAA followed the same progression as the other services.

[John B (Sc)]

The orange variety faded too quickly, appearing very yellow and patchy, so was superseded by the red/dark pink variety. Fire Orange and Flame Red were how I remember the names, though I can't swear to that. I'm pretty sure that the FAA followed the same progression as the other services.

Ah, so you think it was the fading problem too - thanks. I remember seeing French aircraft with similar problems.

I also recall that the paint was said to be very heavy, so those Jet Provosts that were all over Dayglo - was it the Red Pelicans? - may have had interesting weight and balance limitations. The self adhesive sheets were fairly thick, which can't have been good for drag, or aerofoil efficiency!

[Graham Boak]

The paint was certainly thick and globular on my model JP, with the recommended white(?) underneath. It might have given a better impression with yellow undercoat and applied thinly, but I've never got around to repeating the experience.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I remember the Vampires,Hunters,Sea Princes and Whirlwind 7s at Lossie with more shades of dayglo than you would believe! Some were pretty shabby before they went off for a repaint. The later Whirlwind 9s didn't seem to fade as fast as far as I remember.

Does anyone remember the white undercoat which Humbrol made for their dayglo paint?

[canberra kid]

John

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I see 'signal green' listed above. Was this a dayglo colour?

I remember some FAA Meteor TT20s being more a lime green with black stripes than yellow underneath but have it in my head there was a green fuselage band.

Is this a false memory?

[Ossington 2]

ISTR a Mike McEvoy article waaay back in SAM giving serial number/code combinations of at least one machine painted thus. Hal Far wasn't it? It was on my to-do list until all the back issues ended up in the depths of the loft.

[canberra kid]

I see 'signal green' listed above. Was this a dayglo colour?

I remember some FAA Meteor TT20s being more a lime green with black stripes than yellow underneath but have it in my head there was a green fuselage band.

Is this a false memory?

I'm not sure, I know the USAF did trials involving all sorts of shades of day-glo including green, I did do a search using the RN stores ref. numbers but didn't find anything.

John

Edited April 5, 2015 by canberra kid

[Nick Millman]

I see 'signal green' listed above. Was this a dayglo colour?

Standard DayGlo colours and names were:-

Neon Red

Arc Yellow

Signal Green

Saturn Yellow

Fire Orange

Rocket Red

Blaze Orange

Aurora Pink

Two more recent additions are Horizon Blue and Corona Magenta

The four paints listed in the document at comment # 6 are all proprietary DayGlo colours.

http://www.dayglo.com/

Nick

[Grizzly]

Standard DayGlo colours and names were:-

Neon Red

Arc Yellow

Signal Green

Saturn Yellow

Fire Orange

Rocket Red

Blaze Orange

Aurora Pink

Two more recent additions are Horizon Blue and Corona Magenta

The four paints listed in the document at comment # 6 are all proprietary DayGlo colours.

http://www.dayglo.com/

Nick

US supplied aircraft FS 595 28913 ie Hillier HT1/2 Red Orange. UK supplied aircraft Dockerblaze Orange Red 33B 2202312 over white primer to Mod 1741. regards Len

[Grizzly]

I see 'signal green' listed above. Was this a dayglo colour?

I remember some FAA Meteor TT20s being more a lime green with black stripes than yellow underneath but have it in my head there was a green fuselage band.

Is this a false memory?

The TT20 Meteors operating from Hal Far had the underside golden yellow replaced with Saturn yellow hign vis Day Glo because the missile operators were having trouble seeing the Mother aircraft when firing at the targets !!! The aircraft bands remained golden yellow but I believe that lease one trialed Day Glo green bands. Regards Len.

[Nick Millman]

US supplied aircraft FS 595 28913 ie Hillier HT1/2 Red Orange. UK supplied aircraft Dockerblaze Orange Red 33B 2202312 over white primer to Mod 1741. regards Len

Thanks. Yes, sorry, I should have said three colours in the document not four - Signal Green, Saturn Yellow and Rocket Red - Orange Red not a DayGlo colour!

Nick

[John B (Sc)]

Thanks all. Some very useful information, and some memories nudged- especially of Lossiemouth in the early '60s and Valley '64, with the quite varied Dayglo effects..

'Blaze Orange' - of course !

John B

[Chris Thomas]

I see 'signal green' listed above. Was this a dayglo colour?

I remember some FAA Meteor TT20s being more a lime green with black stripes than yellow underneath but have it in my head there was a green fuselage band.

Is this a false memory?

ISTR a Mike McEvoy article waaay back in SAM giving serial number/code combinations of at least one machine painted thus. Hal Far wasn't it? It was on my to-do list until all the back issues ended up in the depths of the loft.

There certainly were TT20s in dayglo lime green and black TT stripes. Probably Mike saw them at Hurn where he was an ATC instructor. I was there as a student and saw them c.1969/70 and took some colour photos. You didn't take too many of them as a colour print cost more than a pint of bitter and there was a pressing requirement for the latter.

Unfortunately, despite using kodacolour the prints reproduced the lime as yellow. In more recent times I've tried scanning the negatives and attempted to revive the lime with photoshop, with disappointing results. The codes were in the 840 range and the serials WDxxx; I have notes of them somewhere if anyone is interested.

CT

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

There certainly were TT20s in dayglo lime green and black TT stripes. Probably Mike saw them at Hurn where he was an ATC instructor. I was there as a student and saw them c.1969/70 and took some colour photos. You didn't take too many of them as a colour print cost more than a pint of bitter and there was a pressing requirement for the latter.

Unfortunately, despite using kodacolour the prints reproduced the lime as yellow. In more recent times I've tried scanning the negatives and attempted to revive the lime with photoshop, with disappointing results. The codes were in the 840 range and the serials WDxxx; I have notes of them somewhere if anyone is interested.

CT

Yes please!

I would like to build one with the green rather than the standard yellow and being a stickler for correct serials and codes this would be right up my street (sad..I know)!

Richard

[Chris Thomas]

Yes please!

I would like to build one with the green rather than the standard yellow and being a stickler for correct serials and codes this would be right up my street (sad..I know)!

Richard

Thanks for your patience. My old notes reveal that I saw the TT.20s at Hurn in October 1969 and the FRU were re-equipping with Canberras to replace them. I recorded the following in the lime green scheme

WM159 840/A

WM242 842

WD649 843

WM255 845

WD785 846

WD780 E

They were silver paint allover with lime green/black TT bands and lime green trainer bands. The 3 digit codes were in black below the cockpit. 842 and 846 had shiny black 'radomes'. The letter codes were carried on the side of the overawing winch; E was in black on a lime winch with a black spiral spinner marking. 845's winch was dayglo orange. They all had their serials marked on the the fin, half way between the bullet fairing and the fuselage. Some, but not 842, 845 or E, had their serials in two lines, like this ... (sounds a bit like one of those logic puzzles)

WD

875

I have a shot of 845 which I will try and post over the weekend. If it doesn't appear Richard, drop me a PM with your email.

Chris

[detail is everything]

Thanks for your patience. My old notes reveal that I saw the TT.20s at Hurn in October 1969 and the FRU were re-equipping with Canberras to replace them. I recorded the following in the lime green scheme

WM159 840/A

WM242 842

WD649 843

WM255 845

WD785 846

WD780 E

They were silver paint allover with lime green/black TT bands and lime green trainer bands. The 3 digit codes were in black below the cockpit. 842 and 846 had shiny black 'radomes'. The letter codes were carried on the side of the overawing winch; E was in black on a lime winch with a black spiral spinner marking. 845's winch was dayglo orange. They all had their serials marked on the the fin, half way between the bullet fairing and the fuselage. Some, but not 842, 845 or E, had their serials in two lines, like this ... (sounds a bit like one of those logic puzzles)

WD

875

I have a shot of 845 which I will try and post over the weekend. If it doesn't appear Richard, drop me a PM with your email.

Chris

In Scale Aircraft Modelling September 1988, the aircraft in detail is target tugs. Two of the Mike Keep profiles are of FAA Meteor TT20s.

The first is of WM292/041 in standard TT colours of the time (silver with golden yellow and black striped undersides). There are a few colour photos of FAA TT20s on the internet (Just Google Meteor TT20 and select images). Two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#/media/File:Gloster_Meteor_TT.20_WM159_776_Hurn_15.07.67_edited-3.jpg and http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1439255 are of WM159/040, which is similar to WM292/041. WM159 had a dayglo D on the yellow winch which had black ratainer bands? around it.

The other Mike Keep profile is of WD592/864/HF in the silver with Day Glo green and black stripes scheme with yellow triner bands i.e. Similar to other aircraft seen by Chris Thomas at Hurn in October 1969 (they had green trainer bands as well). Until I read this topic, I had assumed this scheme was a one off. There is a colour photo of this aircraft http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Navy/Gloster-Meteor-TT20/2063865/L/ , taken after service at Hal Far, , it was delivered from Biggin to Mojave, CA as N94749 between 18 & 22.6.75 and having been restored in camouflage, is nowadays on display at the Edwards AFFTC Museum.

If WD592 was still wearing the Day Glo green scheme at the time it was photographed, it is pretty indiscernible compared to the photos of WM159, which is I asume wearing the golden yellow scheme. So you are relying on written notes to confirm. Chris's experiences with his colour photo's back this up.

Len (Grizzly) says "the TT20 Meteors operating from Hal Far had the underside golden yellow replaced with Saturn yellow high vis Day Glo [is this what we see as green or yet another colour?] because the missile operators were having trouble seeing the Mother aircraft when firing at the targets !!! The aircraft bands remained golden yellow but I believe that lease one trialed Day Glo green bands." Were the aircraft seen by Chris at Hurn in October 1969, ex Hal Far aircraft in storage or was the Day Glo Green modification required outside of the Mediterranean area? and if so, why didn't it continue on to the Canberra TT18s?

Simon

Edited April 15, 2015 by detail is everything

[Grizzly]

In Scale Aircraft Modelling September 1988, the aircraft in detail is target tugs. Two of the Mike Keep profiles are of FAA Meteor TT20s.

The first is of WM292/041 in standard TT colours of the time (silver with golden yellow and black striped undersides). There are a few colour photos of FAA TT20s on the internet (Just Google Meteor TT20 and select images). Two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#/media/File:Gloster_Meteor_TT.20_WM159_776_Hurn_15.07.67_edited-3.jpg and http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1439255 are of WM159/040, which is similar to WM292/041. WM159 had a dayglo D on the yellow winch which had black ratainer bands? around it.

The other Mike Keep profile is of WD592/864/HF in the silver with Day Glo green and black stripes scheme with yellow triner bands i.e. Similar to other aircraft seen by Chris Thomas at Hurn in October 1969 (they had green trainer bands as well). Until I read this topic, I had assumed this scheme was a one off. There is a colour photo of this aircraft http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Navy/Gloster-Meteor-TT20/2063865/L/ , taken after service at Hal Far, , it was delivered from Biggin to Mojave, CA as N94749 between 18 & 22.6.75 and having been restored in camouflage, is nowadays on display at the Edwards AFFTC Museum.

If WD592 was still wearing the Day Glo green scheme at the time it was photographed, it is pretty indiscernible compared to the photos of WM159, which is I asume wearing the golden yellow scheme. So you are relying on written notes to confirm. Chris's experiences with his colour photo's back this up.

Len (Grizzly) says "the TT20 Meteors operating from Hal Far had the underside golden yellow replaced with Saturn yellow high vis Day Glo [is this what we see as green or yet another colour?] because the missile operators were having trouble seeing the Mother aircraft when firing at the targets !!! The aircraft bands remained golden yellow but I believe that lease one trialed Day Glo green bands." Were the aircraft seen by Chris at Hurn in October 1 969, ex Hal Far aircraft in storage or was the Day Glo Green modification required outside of the Mediterranean area? and if so, why didn't it continue on to the Canberra TT18s?

Simon

Hi Simon I am ex RN & my friend was on Seacat trails on HMS Caviler in the Med shoting at targets towed by these aircraft. Thus I have it first hand about the need to change colour. Saturn yellow was the colour used after trails with this and Dayglo green. The second picture you show is Saturn yellow the Green was totally a different colour to that!! As an aside when they moved on to Firefly Us he got so good he was asked if he could miss now & again , as they were running out of aircraft targets. Yes only the Hal Far aircraft were repainted Saturn Yellow. The first aircraft you showed was Golden Yellow& is at Cobham hall Yeovilton FAA museum preserved. regards Len

Edited April 15, 2015 by Grizzly

[detail is everything]

Hi Simon I am ex RN & my friend was on Seacat trails on HMS Caviler in the Med shoting at targets towed by these aircraft. Thus I have it first hand about the need to change colour. Saturn yellow was the colour used after trails with this and Dayglo green. The second picture you show is Saturn yellow the Green was totally a different colour to that!! As an aside when they moved on to Firefly Us he got so good he was asked if he could miss now & again , as they were running out of aircraft targets. Yes only the Hal Far aircraft were repainted Saturn Yellow. The first aircraft you showed was Golden Yellow& is at Cobham hall Yeovilton FAA museum preserved. regards Len

Thanks Len

So, the yellow undersurface colour on Hal Far TT20s was changed from Golden Yellow to the more visible DayGlo Saturn Yellow, with the trainer bands remaining Golden Yellow.

Where does the DayGlo Signal Green (is this the same green as that described as the Lime Green seen on TT20s?) come into the equation?

Was Saturn Yellow subsequently replaced by Signal Green on Hal Far airframes or was its application the result of an entirely different oporational requirement?

WD592/864/HF is noted by Mike Keep as being in the silver with DayGlo green and black stripes scheme with yellow triner bands i.e. similar to other TT20's seen by Chris Thomas at Hurn in October 1969 (although he recollects they had green trainer bands as well).

Were those aircraft seen at Hurn by Chris Thomas, ex Hal Far aircraft or was DayGlo green being used on domestically (FRU) based TT20's also.

If DayGlo green was also used on domestically based TT20's, was this at entire squadron level or a matter of individual airframes being circulated around squadrons and those which passed through 728 NAS? in Hal Far retained their green undersurfaces when they returned home?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get my head around what happened and why.

Regards

Simon

[John]

I remember the Vampires,Hunters,Sea Princes and Whirlwind 7s at Lossie with more shades of dayglo than you would believe! Some were pretty shabby before they went off for a repaint. The later Whirlwind 9s didn't seem to fade as fast as far as I remember.

Does anyone remember the white undercoat which Humbrol made for their dayglo paint?

John

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

"Were those aircraft seen at Hurn by Chris Thomas, ex Hal Far aircraft or was DayGlo green being used on domestically (FRU) based TT20's also."

I cannot remember what colours they were earlier in the sixties when they were with NASU at Lossie but long after they had left there they were regular visitors so I suggest they were operational with FRU.

[Grizzly]

John

I still have a tin in the box .

[Grizzly]

Thanks Len

So, the yellow undersurface colour on Hal Far TT20s was changed from Golden Yellow to the more visible DayGlo Saturn Yellow, with the trainer bands remaining Golden Yellow.

Where does the DayGlo Signal Green (is this the same green as that described as the Lime Green seen on TT20s?) come into the equation?

Was Saturn Yellow subsequently replaced by Signal Green on Hal Far airframes or was its application the result of an entirely different oporational requirement?

WD592/864/HF is noted by Mike Keep as being in the silver with DayGlo green and black stripes scheme with yellow triner bands i.e. similar to other TT20's seen by Chris Thomas at Hurn in October 1969 (although he recollects they had green trainer bands as well).

Were those aircraft seen at Hurn by Chris Thomas, ex Hal Far aircraft or was DayGlo green being used on domestically (FRU) based TT20's also.

If DayGlo green was also used on domestically based TT20's, was this at entire squadron level or a matter of individual airframes being circulated around squadrons and those which passed through 728 NAS? in Hal Far retained their green undersurfaces when they returned home?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get my head around what happened and why.

Regards

Simon

I will check my Ref books, The Saturn Yellow was only used at HF, Golden yellow UK both underside the bands remained Golden Yellow on both as they could not be seen from below ,wear the weapons were being fired from. regards Len

[Chris Thomas]

Hopefully my Hurn TT.20 photos will be linked to this post (first attempt). I have been a bit more successful with photoshop in restoring the lime green tint. If anything they should be a little greener. I've also got some colour shots of the last FRU Scimitars and the 'new' Canberras and Hunters, if anyone is interested ... I guess 'Scimitar' might be?

CT

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/538/ogSUVz.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/9bvntm.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/538/gdvInf.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/7FrNbR.jpg

Edited April 17, 2015 by Chris Thomas