Hurricane MkI V7288 questions

[Weatherman]

Hello guys, nice to meet in this forum. I am currently building a model of Hawker Hurricane MkI in scale 1/48 which will turn to be Nigel Cullen's a/c that crashed in 4th March 1941 in the Ionian Sea, west of Albania.

There is only one shot of this a/c with the pilot as well (actually his last photo) depicting part of the machine the day of the crash.

The info is: 80 Squadron, V7288, Greece 1941, a/c came from Egypt.

Questions:
-Did the aircraft carry a tropical voke's filter or the standard european one? It's not visible in the photo. From other photographs of the same squadron's machines in 1941 in Greece, there is a variety with Hurricanes carrying voke's filter and other carrying the european.
-The camouflage seems to be temperate (Dark Earth/Dark Green) and not desert. There is no spaghetti camo on the leading edge of the wings and under the engine cowl. No squadron letters on the fuselage. Any idea about the colour of the wheel bay? I painted it pale green as the general interior colour but I see that many Hurricanes are painted aluminium in the wheel hub. Would aluminium be a better idea?
-Any idea for the underside colour? Some others told me it is Sky Blue, but does this colour match with the temperate uppersurface camo?

-About the spinner, I think that it is a Rotol spinner and not a De Havilland one. Do you agree?

-Any other info will be appreciated!

There is one more shot of 80 Sqn's Hurricanes taken in Palestine in 1941, not very far from the days of the war in Greece. It shows Hurricanes carrying Voke's filter, and still without squadron letters.

Another photo taken in Argos/Greece 1941 shows an abandoned machine of 80 Squadron, which does not carry a tropical filter...

Any ideas?

Thank you for your time!

Themis

[Troy Smith]

HI

lots of questions.

Pic in question

does not look to have a Vokes filter

wheel bay, painted aluminium, as are most of the rest of the interior apart from cockpit walls and rear bulkhead,

see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page-3#entry1682406

for photos and more info on this.

Looks Temperate Land Scheme, undersides could be Sky Blue, as this seems to have been preferred in the Mediterranean. No way to tell from a B/W photo.

Given it looks to be standard without the tropical filter, I'd be inclined to use Sky.

Spinner is the 'Bullet' Rotol, usually associated with the Mk II, but seen on later Mk I's as well.

If you are going to do a Mk I, I'd wait until the new Airfix kit comes out, as it looks to be the best in scale from the sprue shots and test builds.

The spaghetti scheme has been discussed here before.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922498-hurricane-spaghetti-scheme-i-said-it-was-blue/

HTH

T

[Weatherman]

Thank you very much Troy.

So no Trop filter, aluminium wheel hub and radiator interiors, Temperate scheme and sky undersurfaces!

[Weatherman]

Hello guys! I am back with another question as I am approaching the painting procedure. Can you maybe find out which of the two paint patterns is on the above aircraft (A or B Scheme)? I can hardly understand.

The two patterns:

1) If you take a closer look at the photo, there is a clear line between the two shades of colour, starting from the top right "corner" of the roundel and moving upside backwards. (maybe it is not a camo line?)

2)There are two more lines under and behind of the cockpit looking like Type B.

3) One more similar line goes around and behind the exhausts with the darker colour (dark green) inside. This also leads to Type B.

Line 1 does not match to lines 2 and 3.

Here are the lines on the original photo:

So, what do you think? Thank you in advance!

[Graham Boak]

Temperate camouflage appears to have been normal for the Hurricanes in Greece, although I would have expected a Vokes filter.

That's certainly a Rotol propeller, and I'll go with Troy about the spinner.

What can be seen of the camouflage is pretty clearly Type B to me.

The Sky Blue undersides will remain controversial in the lack of any paperwork confirming its use, and the casual use of the term "sky blue" to describe what could well be, and at time probably is, Azure Blue. If we assume that it hasn't been in the hands of ME technicians, then I'd be inclined to go with either Sky or Azure Blue. Azure Blue was perhaps more likely at this time. Most people are aware by now that Azure Blue was not as dark as often portrayed. The ME had its own underside colour, sometimes called "Iraqi Sky" which was a more intense blue than the pale Sky Blue, but if no filter had been fitted, then it had probably not been repainted.

[Weatherman]

Thank you Graham! So Type B camo (line 1 does not represent a separating line?).

Regarding the filter etc. The machine does not seem to have stayed a long in Egypt (or even Greece as it crashed on the 4th of March 1941) and this is clearly understood by the fact that the aircraft has no squadron letters. The lack of vokes filter leads to the fact that this machine (like other of the same squadron) came to Greece very urgently to upgrade the fighting power of the RAF forces in this country. It was the first time 80 Sqn flew this type. There are other photos of Hurries from 80 Squadron, abandoned on airfields in Greece, that are shown without a Vokes filter but with a European one.

The other squadron that flew Hurricanes in Greece was 33 Squadron, which was based long before with Hurricanes in the Middle East. All of their machines wore Vokes filter, De Havilland prop & spinner, were painted in the Desert Camouflage with the spaghetti drawing on the leading edges of the front wings.

Themis

[Graham Boak]

Not quite the only two squadrons - there was also a recce unit flying them (in smaller numbers). However, I'm a little surprised by your statement giving such a definite split between the two squadrons. I've only seen one photo of a clearly desert/spaghetti Hurricane in Greece, and another (?) being ferried out. It surely can't have been true throughout the campaign, as reinforcements would not have been carefully allocated on a scheme basis. The majority of the photos I've seen show temperate camouflage, regardless of the unit - which is not always clear.

[Seahawk]

For a vivid eye-witness account of the RAF Hurricane squadrons in Greece and Crete (including the initially intense rivalry between 33 and 80 Squadrons), read Operation Mercury by M G Comeau MM. Unusually it's by a groundcrewman.

Tangentially related to OP's questions, it has 2 Hurricane photos from which useful details can be derived:

a. Hurricane V74xx NW-x (in fact, can't tell if there was an individual letter at all) of 33 Sq at Larissa. Small pointy spinner with oil collector behind it. Air filter area and wing leading edges obscured. Squadron code aft of roundel and under serial. Fin flash covering entire fin area. Upper camouflage colours look DE/DG but do not appear to correspond to either scheme in post 4. (Also Shores p. 125)

b. Hurricane W9298 X of 33 Squadron, "the last Hurricane at Maleme" evacuated to Egypt on 19 May. Spinner, air filter area and wing leading edges all obscured. Individual code aft of roundel, standard rectangular fin flash. Colours look DE/DG but can't make out pattern. (Also Shores p.333)

One might think that Air War over Yugloslavia, Greece and Crete by Chris Shores et al would be a rich source of info but the photos, printed on ordinary paper, are so abysmally murky as to be useless. The book does include the photo at a, above, identifying the aircraft as V7419. There is also a photo (p.282) of a Hurricane, captioned as V7773 of 80 Sqn at Argos. The caption also says the small white inscription below the cockpit reads "SURREY". Aircraft has a Vokes filter, and the larger but still quite pointy spinner. Sweep of underside colour up and over the nose behind the spinner suggests the aircraft may well have had light leading edges to the wings and maybe spaghetti camouflage as well but the lighting is not helpful. Standard rectangular fin flash. Gas rectangle on spine immediately ahead of fin. I would say, but not bet the house on it, that it is in DE/DG to the Type B scheme. No codes of any description visible. Photo has been taken by a German after the airfield's capture.

Memo to self: must bone up on Hurricane spinner types one day.

[Edited for typos.]

Edited March 2, 2016 by Seahawk

[Weatherman]

Nice conversation regarding a very complex subject. I have uploaded a bunch of photos (well-known and not) of Hurricanes in Greece 1941. Have a look. It seems to be a mess-mix of camo's and filters.

1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

[mhaselden]

Thanks for posting those pics, Weatherman. The first image also shows an airframe with a bullet Rotol spinner and no Vokes filter.

[Troy Smith]

Weatherman

Note, early (most) Tropical Mk. I's has the De Havilland Hurricane type spinner/prop, as seen in the rest of the phtos you posted. Later Mk.I's have the Rotol 'bullet' spinner and prop, usually thought to be just fitted to the Mk.II

Confused? Read this

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

also for you Seahawk

Memo to self: must bone up on Hurricane spinner types one day.

this, while a guide to Camo and Markings in NW Europe. has much that will be relevant to your questions, including a factory camouflage diagram and details of marking size and position

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

There have been thread here on Hurricanes in Greece, which may or may not help.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234992892-po-vales-hurricane-v7795/

doing a research about Hurricane V7795, frequently flown by P/O W Vale during the Greece and Crete Campaign, I come across this photo, taken from the book “Air War for Yugoslavia Greece Crete 40-41” by C.Shores. The camouflage of the nose has been the subject of a long discussion here from where, if I well understand, there is a reasonable agreement that the color was Aluminium with irregular mottles of pale blue and green.

This time however I would like to point the attention on a detail in the plane that was probably never noted before (apologize me if I am wrong). Under the sliding canopy in fact is visible what seems a Sqn Leader pennant. This Hurricane was a replacement aircraft assigned to No. 80 Sqn on 9th April 1941 (based at Eleusis -Greece), arriving via Egypt via Crete. According to some source the photo I posted was taken during the journey for Greece.

At this point I suspect that this plane was not a new plane but probably the personal plane of the previous assignment commander.

Please can you confirm this thesis? Any additional information about this plane will be welcomed.

Thank you for the help

Flavio

this pic is on Wiki

Pilots of No. 80 Squadron RAF relax in front of Hawker Hurricane Mark I (V7599, 'YK-Q') at Eleusis, Greece: (left to right); Sergeant C.E. Casbolt, Flying Officer H.D. Flower, Pilot Officer J. Still, Pilot Officer P.T. Dowding, Sergeant E.W.F. Hewett and Warrant Officer S.A. Richens.

plane has bullet Rotol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Pattle

33sq pilots in Greece, V74**, hard to tell, think DH Hurricane type

there is this pic

No. 33 Squadron: Pattle, (6th from right), in Greece, circa 1941. Timber Woods (9th from the right).

which I presume is the same photo session, and may well be the same plane, much clearer view of the prop, it also shows how tricky it can be working out what prop is fitted.

also

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234921033-roald-dahls-aircraft/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/45866-hurricane-photo-identification/

which may have some useful information.

HTH

T

[Seahawk]

If the first of Weatherman's photos is indeed of Bill Vale's plane, then it may well have been V7134 which Shores et al have him flying on 19 and 23 April. No other serials associated with him. (Glad to say the text of this book much better than the photos.)

Troy: Shores et al identify the NW-coded aircraft as V7419: first of the 2 photos I described at post 8..

Edited February 17, 2016 by Seahawk

[Weatherman]

Hello again friends. Very nice cnoversation indeed. What I understand is that 33 Sqn Hurricanes used to carry the DeHavilland spinner and prop while 80 Sqn the Rotol ones.

I am back with one more question regarding the right Sky colour tone of the undersides. Which of the following do you think fits better:

I think number 3 would be ok. What is your opinion?

[Troy Smith]

HI

Subject to many debates. 1 and 2 are possible alternates for when Sky undersides was first introduced in June 1940, and are not relevant to the planes being discussed.

3 is the standard colour for the Temperate Land Scheme.

4 is a colour that they liked in the Middle East, in preference to Sky,

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234931280-documentation-on-desert-hurricane-spaghetti-middle-east-blue/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34405-mediterranean-undersurface-colors/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234957356-sky-blue-what-is-it-good-for/

but if you work on the principle of fresh aircraft being rushed out to the theatre, Sky is a reasonable 'best guess'

read the threads though, some interesting discussion.

HTH

T

[Weatherman]

Thank you Troy! I will go on with the common Sky.

Would you think that Humbrol 90 would be ok?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Weatherman