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Westland Whirlwind questions....


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I know, and I nearly added a disclaimer- I wasn't intending to be rude to you so my apologies. It's just that I like the design, and every time anyone starts talking about it, the Merlin comes up!

bob

Hi Bob,

Your original comment brightened the start to my day :)

One thing I like about this board, is we can voice our opinions.

May this long last :)

cheers

jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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anyway, they'd have gone straight for the Griffon :evil_laugh:

I agree, Jerry, but I do try to self-monitor in order to help that process along. My problem is that my compulsive need for humor and sarcasm is often read otherwise. Or maybe it's just that my "humor" isn't that good... no, that can't be it.

bob

p.s. Thomas, buying the books won't help much- you'll still get conflicting information and theories! But do it anyway- it is for a good cause.

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Do they know which one? I note that P6967 was transferred to Rolls-Royce on 23 Sep 1940, then to RAE on 31 Dec 1941 and then returned to works "to be returned to standard" on 18 Mar 1942.

Nick

Hi

I cant find my notes at the moment, i think three went to R-R

but i have only seen photos of P6967, ( the most likely aircraft )

there are three photos of it with an air intake on top of the nacelles, sorry I cant post them, there were restrictions placed on me being allowed copies of the photos

I will try to find an example on the net

cheers

jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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anyway, they'd have gone straight for the Griffon :evil_laugh:

I agree, Jerry, but I do try to self-monitor in order to help that process along. My problem is that my compulsive need for humor and sarcasm is often read otherwise. Or maybe it's just that my "humor" isn't that good... no, that can't be it.

bob

p.s. Thomas, buying the books won't help much- you'll still get conflicting information and theories! But do it anyway- it is for a good cause.

I get the same problem with my brit humour here in canada :)

and I think the should have gone with jet engine design, the westland drawings look good.

cheers

jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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Hi

Thats because everyone keeps saying they cant and wont read the archived evidence

See post four in this thread

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?113891-Allison-engined-Whirlwind

Cheers

Jerry

It's fair to say that "won't fit" was simplifying. Short of a quart in a pint pot, you can put anything into anything if you try hard enough. The problem is that you have to end up with something useful, in the time available, and further it should be more useful than if you spent the time and effort on something else. The judgement of the time was that this was not the case: you need more than a few project drawings in an archive to make a case.

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I'd love to know if even a drawing exists to show how Westland were going to fit the Merlin's up draught carburettor into the nacelle. That SU carburettor and associated equipment, hanging off the bottom of the supercharger,was very much in the way of the main landing gear attachment and some considerable work would have to have been done to make a Merlin fit the nacelle. It's not just about overall dimensions, it's also about geometry :)

It's why I remain somewhat dubious that the conversion was ever actually made, though I'll happily be wrong!

Cheers

Steve

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Hi

I cant find my notes at the moment, i think three went to R-R

but i have only seen photos of P6967, ( the most likely aircraft )

there are three photos of it with an air intake on top of the nacelles, sorry I cant post them, there were restrictions placed on me being allowed copies of the photos

I will try to find an example on the net

cheers

jerry

Thanks for that.

Apart from the two prototypes L6844 and L6845, P6980 and P6997 also went to A&AEE for trials (16 Nov 1940 and 9 Apr 1941 respectively), but AFAIK only P6967 went to R-R which would make it the likeliest contender. The note suggests that it was modified in some non-standard manner so inference can be drawn but I have no details for that. The A&AEE trials do not seem to have included anything to do with Merlin engine re-fitting.

Surely there must be public domain photographs/reports somewhere? Rolls-Royce archives?

Nick

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AAEE wouldn't have done anything until there was a flyable airplane to check out. RR Hucknall would be the place to look (if not Westland).

In addition to Graham's comments, in this case it would have to be considered a better use of TWO Merlin XXs. The Whirlwind undoubtedly had some fans, but in general I think the powers-that-be had moved on by early '41.

bob

p.s. Wonder how Hornet cowls would fit?

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Since the company has been in continuous existence since the war, and doing roughly the same thing (unlike Westlands), I'd be surprised if RR had indeed done a Merlin conversion, and no documentary evidence had turned up since 1940.

J.

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I was thinking more of "playing around with the idea"- it sounds like they may have worked up a trial installation (or mockup), however sophisticated, but I think if they'd done a real (completed) conversion we'd have heard about it. I don't know whether the Whirlwind worshipers have mined the RR archives- I haven't gotten there myself, but I sure would like to. So there may yet be some interesting things lurking...

bob

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I was thinking more of "playing around with the idea"- it sounds like they may have worked up a trial installation (or mockup), however sophisticated, but I think if they'd done a real (completed) conversion we'd have heard about it. I don't know whether the Whirlwind worshipers have mined the RR archives- I haven't gotten there myself, but I sure would like to. So there may yet be some interesting things lurking...

bob

bob thats the thing is they may well have done it put merlins on a whirlwind and then lost the paperwork it was wartime ... things got lost and misfiled or even labled secret .. as you say unless someone been through every record we may never know..

thomas

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Since the company has been in continuous existence since the war, and doing roughly the same thing (unlike Westlands), I'd be surprised if RR had indeed done a Merlin conversion, and no documentary evidence had turned up since 1940.

J.

Hi

westlands lost a lot if the stuff in a flood,

and some stuff like the PR whirlwind was not selected for preservation by which ever goverment dept selected files ( AHB ? ) so pretty much nothing exists in the NA.

cheers

jerry

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bob thats the thing is they may well have done it put merlins on a whirlwind and then lost the paperwork it was wartime ... things got lost and misfiled or even labled secret .. as you say unless someone been through every record we may never know..

thomas

Hi

Could well be,

or it could have been thought to be of no historical interest and destroyed

like all those aorcrew log books

or as the FAA did with their aircraft cards

cheers

jerry

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Hi

westlands lost a lot if the stuff in a flood,

and some stuff like the PR whirlwind was not selected for preservation by which ever goverment dept selected files ( AHB ? ) so pretty much nothing exists in the NA.

cheers

jerry

Which was kind of my point. I can believe that Westland might have lost, or destroyed, a lot of archive material during the various re-alignments of their business. Rolls-Royce by contrast have stayed in the engine business, and as a rule are quite heritage conscious. I would find it harder to accept that they would have lost or binned every scrap of material relating to something as significant as re-engining the Whirlwind.

regards,

Jason

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Which was kind of my point. I can believe that Westland might have lost, or destroyed, a lot of archive material during the various re-alignments of their business. Rolls-Royce by contrast have stayed in the engine business, and as a rule are quite heritage conscious. I would find it harder to accept that they would have lost or binned every scrap of material relating to something as significant as re-engining the Whirlwind.

regards,

Jason

Hi

yeah maybe someting may turn up at r-r,

i know they had not kept their photos of the peregrine engined fairey battle, they asked if i had one or found one, so maybe they threw out some stuff around 1971 ?

who knows we may never find out

cheers

jerry

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  • 2 years later...

Did Bowater not explain what went on with P6967 in his book on the two Whirlwind squadrons?

According to him, it had absolutely nothing to do with Merlins but rather, initially, a failure to maintain rated boost during climbs. Whilst at Hucknall the aircraft was fitted with external air intakes and oil coolers and Morris low drag radiators.  These changes actually increased speed and FTH by 1,200 feet but were never incorporated into production aircraft.

Cheers

Steve

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