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Westland Whirlwind questions....


roadrunner

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L6844 was minus the tail/fin bullet fairing at first and according to the Bingham book, wore an overall dark grey (unspecified shade) colour scheme. Rudder hinge line was also initially different on L6844. L6845 according to Bruce Robertson (in a 1970 Kookaburra softback) says that L6845 was in overall silver (I would suspect dope rather than natural metal). L6845 also seems to have had an armoured windscreen early on but the rear portion of the canopy looks a little less 'blown' than production types but not vastly different at all. L6844 definitely flew first without the armoured screen but otherwise the canopy looks close to the final shape. Both a/c seem to lack the small elliptical 'direct vision' sported by production a/c in the port side of the sliding canopy portion.

I have two original Westland photographs showing L6844. One is in overall upper colour of grey with what looks like silver undersides. In this photo it also has the modified tail end and what appears to be the final bullet but with interim external exhausts. The other pic shows L6844 in what could be underside black and white or silver and overall greay nacelles. They are shown below - you make up your own mind!

L6845 (2nd prototype) was delayed by modifications and appeared almost with the first production a/c so would have been almost identical to a production machine externally. As mentioned, the exhaust arrangement was in a state of flux and this a/c had an external exhaust but differeing to production standard at this time. The tail/fin bullet was also there at first flight but in a smaller form to that of production hulls but a standard rudder was there showing the forward swept hinge line at the top end.

Exhausts: The Bingham book again comes to the rescue and shows photos of the various trial configurations, initially an internal arrangement, exhausting at the trailing edge of the wing, changing to a more usual external system, both prototypes showing different stages of development towards the final fitment adopted for production.

I hope this is of help. I have quite a bit more stuff here too.

crikey_zpsyw1srwvf.jpg

I would recommend these books for further references particularly of the prototypes:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/4PLUS16

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/VWP7586635

Best wishes, Nige B

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Hi

My personal opinion, as it was an all metal aircraft, the initial photos of each aircraft is in its metal skin

next L6844 scheme is i think is a primer of dark grey

they both appear to be in DE/DG, night/white schemes in 1939

the photo of 'L6844 in post 2 with line abreast cannons, is i think yellow undersurfaces and uppersurfaces dark earth, the photo i think is taken before any dark green was sprayed on.

in general there seems to be photos taken at stages of the prototype aircraft getting painted, which i think gives the impression of some different schemes being carried

Take great care when using whirlwind warpaint book, there are quite a few 'grey' areas.

valiant wings has some 'iffy' areas as well

cheers

Jerry

for the whirlwind reading these two books i would recommend they are excellent

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00K1NOR7S?ie=UTF8&redirectFromSS=1&pc_redir=T1&noEncodingTag=1&robot_redir=1

http://m.indigo.ca/product/books/the-westland-whirlwind-mk-i/9782918590088

Edited by brewerjerry
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Take great care when using whirlwind warpaint book, there are quite a few 'grey' areas.

valiant wings has some 'iffy' areas as well

Can we be a little more diplomatic and suggest that, as with all areas of history, there is much information waiting to be substantiated?

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Your phrase introduces an element of uncertainty that may not be justified. There are a large number of comments made in earlier works (not on just this type, of course) that have been shown to be just plain wrong. Certainly there are published books where definite statements have been made that cannot be substantiated and should have been qualified. I think the use of "grey areas" is diplomatic and carries much the same meaning. Without knowing the specific points, "iffy" may well be being diplomatic too, if less obviously so!

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Hi

I was being diplomatic and also kind to the two books

To be fair I have an advantage, over 40 yrs research into the whirlwind.

the two books i recommend at the end of my post one by Alex and one by Naill are excellent and well researched.

cheers

Jerry

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thanks for all your answers :thumbsup:

I think I will finaly build the G-AGOI, more simple.

Hi

Remember westlands ran out of the batch of grey paint they were using :)

so G-AGOI was painted in two slightly different shades of grey due to two batches of paint being used to paint it. :)

If you see a good photo of G-AGOI , you can notice the slight difference.

Incidently there are a few who beleive that the remains of G-AGOI are still buried at the westland airfield.

cheers

jerry

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interesting subject been thinking of getting a model of one or two any recomendations ? , did they ever put merlin engines on it ?

thomas

Hi

read post four here from the whirlwind fighter project

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?113891-Allison-engined-Whirlwind

Also

westlands offered a merlin XX in jan 41, a letter exists in the NA at kew, london

As to models I like the airfix one, ( the second issue ) not bad for the price,

and there is a/m photo etch & vac canopy available for it if you want a bit more.

pavla do one, bit hard to find now.

special hobby do a choice of three kits, nice but abit more expensive.

I dont personally recommend the trumpy kit, not all that good :(

One day i will get around to building a merlin XX one, using an airfix and lanc engine nacelles/pods

and converting the existing radiator space in the wing to a fuel tank

my interpretation of westlands 1941 merlin XX offer

but before that a PR whirlwind, they were actually building them before the RAF changed theor mind

cheers

jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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Also

westlands offered a merlin XX in jan 41, a letter exists in the NA at kew, londony

Offered to Fighter Command, the letter is addressed to Leigh-Mallory. Fighter Command did not decide which aircraft got built for the RAF. The letter is little more than an effort to get L-M on side in Westland's efforts to save, or should that be revive, the Whirlwind.

The letter to L-M followed Freeman's 'No new Whirlwinds' memo of May 1940 which was the Air Ministry's axe falling. It was also the death knell for any further Peregrine development which may be why Westland proposed the Merlin variant. The Air Ministry did decide which aircraft got built for the RAF.

Cheers

Steve

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Just once I'd like to see a conversation about the Whirlwind that did NOT include a comment about "if only they'd put Merlins on it..." :winkgrin:

bob

Well Bob, that's all very well but oh, how good would it have been, if only they'd put Merlins in it?

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One approach is called a Welkin. Otherwise, it would have been completely different, because Merlins can't fit into a Whirlwind. It was considered, and ruled out as too massive a change. It's one thing to do a quick project sketch to see who bites, and something else to do it. The bigger engine would need more fuel, greater cooling so a new structure (not Lancaster-type cowlings because the Mosquito tried those and they weren't as good), bigger props so a taller undercarriage with a wider centre-section, a rebalancing of the design meaning a bigger tail/longer fuselage, everything heavier so you need a bigger wing - and if you propose it in 1941 it doesn't see service before 1943 at the earliest, and is no better than a Mosquito. Plus Westland has to give up doing whatever more useful work it was doing, such as more Spitfires and the vast majority of Seafires.

Edited by Graham Boak
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Just once I'd like to see a conversation about the Whirlwind that did NOT include a comment about "if only they'd put Merlins on it..." :winkgrin:

bob

jeez i only asked as i dont know much on the whirlwind other than it looks good..

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One approach is called a Welkin. Otherwise, it would have been completely different, because Merlins can't fit into a Whirlwind. It was considered, and ruled out as too massive a change. It's one thing to do a quick project sketch to see who bites, and something else to do it. The bigger engine would need more fuel, greater cooling so a new structure (not Lancaster-type cowlings because the Mosquito tried those and they weren't as good), bigger props so a taller undercarriage with a wider centre-section, a rebalancing of the design meaning a bigger tail/longer fuselage, everything heavier so you need a bigger wing - and if you propose it in 1941 it doesn't see service before 1943 at the earliest, and is no better than a Mosquito. Plus Westland has to give up doing whatever more useful work it was doing, such as more Spitfires and the vast majority of Seafires.

graham cheers for the info..

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Hi,

But if you read post four in the thread i linked ...

'There is strong evidence Merlins' were put into a whirlwind by R-R

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?113891-Allison-engined-Whirlwind

Slightly off tack, I corresponded with a westlands draughtman who designed engine nacelles to take merlins for the whirlwind

Cheers

Jerry

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Just once I'd like to see a conversation about the Whirlwind that did NOT include a comment about "if only they'd put Merlins on it..." :winkgrin:

bob

Hi

Thats because everyone keeps saying they cant and wont read the archived evidence

See post four in this thread

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?113891-Allison-engined-Whirlwind

Cheers

Jerry

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jeez i only asked as i dont know much on the whirlwind other than it looks good..

Hi

It gives me the chance to quote the references to the archived evidence to prove that it could take a merlin, and in the case of the whirlwind fighter project research at westlands archives, that the airframe was strong enough to takke it.

Cheers

Jerry ( who is convinced the world is round not square )

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Hi

It gives me the chance to quote the references to the archived evidence to prove that it could take a merlin, and in the case of the whirlwind fighter project research at westlands archives, that the airframe was strong enough to takke it.

Cheers

Jerry ( who is convinced the world is round not square )

a lot of conflicting theories/stories and information on here so will have to buy the books myself and check it out .

.thanks jerry.

thomas

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Hi

Thats because everyone keeps saying they cant and wont read the archived evidence

See post four in this thread

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?113891-Allison-engined-Whirlwind

Cheers

Jerry

Do they know which one? I note that P6967 was transferred to Rolls-Royce on 23 Sep 1940, then to RAE on 31 Dec 1941 and then returned to works "to be returned to standard" on 18 Mar 1942.

Nick

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jeez i only asked as i dont know much on the whirlwind other than it looks good..

I know, and I nearly added a disclaimer- I wasn't intending to be rude to you so my apologies. It's just that I like the design, and every time anyone starts talking about it, the Merlin comes up!

bob

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I know, and I nearly added a disclaimer- I wasn't intending to be rude to you so my apologies. It's just that I like the design, and every time anyone starts talking about it, the Merlin comes up!

bob

no probs mate..

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