Hellenic Air Force-marked Hurricanes.

[GMK]

I noticed while visiting the War Museum in Athens a model of a Hurricane in the typical desert scheme, tropical filter, with Hellenic (blue/white/blue) roundels & fin flashes. There was no serial on the model nor subject photo.

Did this scheme exist in real life, or is it 'inspired' by real events?

Thanks,

Greg

[Giorgio N]

It is a fact that at a certain point in the war a number of Greek manned RAF units replaced some of the roundels with "greek" ones by replacing the red with blue.

Hurricanes of 335 Sqn. for example carried blue centred roundels on the fuselage and under the wings. The same happened to the fin flash that became blue-white-blue.

IIRC the upper roundels however remained in the standard red/blue.

[Graham Boak]

Try this:http://www.haf.gr/el/articles/pdf/desert_squadrons.pdf

[Edgar]

This letter appeared in Scale Aircraft Modelling, or the IPMS magazine, way back when Neil Robinson was editor:-

[GMK]

Interesting! Thanks Giorgio, Graham & Edgar.

As always, ambiguity rules discussions of WWII colour.

Greg

[Graham Boak]

1941/42 is too early to see other than RAF roundels on "exile" squadrons. What happened by 1944 is another matter. I think the Greek Hurricanes have been discussed on BM but quite a while ago.

[tonyot]

The Greek flown Martin Baltimore`s of 13 Sqn Hellenic Air Force also wore the same style roundels for a time while based in Italy with the Balkan Air Force and after arriving in Greece in 1944 they had the more standard blue white blue roundels applied.

Cheers

Tony

[old thumper]

If you want a kit of a Greek Hurricane IIB look no further than the nice Revell 1.72 scale kit, only trouble it has RAF roundels.

[Troy Smith]

If you want a kit of a Greek Hurricane IIB look no further than the nice Revell 1.72 scale kit, only trouble it has RAF roundels.

Skydecals do a cheap Hurricane sheet with loads of options, including Greek.

Unfortunately some of the colours are off, notably the code letters, so it's of limited use. The Greek codes are fine, as they are white. Note the blue roundel centres and fin flash parts down the sheet for the Greek option.

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SKY48052

I don't 'do' 1/72nd, but the Revell IIB/IIC kit IIRC has errors in wing chord, the rear cockpit bulkhead is too far back and some spurious fabric detail, the 'triangle' behind the 'doghouse', follow the line of the hood rail. The last is IMHO the big problem, as fixing it is a lot of work, eg sand off and recreate fabric detail.

and the real thing, no 'Triangle' and well shows the stringer lines.

more information here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976948-hurricane-mk1-metal-wing-in-172/page-2#entry1902196

I don't know that any of the 1/72nd Mk II's actually get the fabric right, the Hase kits have the spurious access panel 'ribs', and over done fabric, and this was carried over the the AZ kit IIRC.

[old thumper]

Skydecals do a cheap Hurricane sheet with loads of options, including Greek.

Unfortunately some of the colours are off, notably the code letters, so it's of limited use. The Greek codes are fine, as they are white. Note the blue roundel centres and fin flash parts down the sheet for the Greek option.

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SKY48052

I'm afraid the roundels and flashes are SEAC and not Greek.

[Dennis_C]

Dark blue flashes and roundels are placed around red FGS letters.

[old thumper]

Dark blue flashes and roundels are placed around red FGS letters.

I am sure you will find that the red FGS letters go with standard RAF roundels, the blue roundels and flashes belong to the Burma/India theatre. Greek roundels were completely different being blue and white, much different to the light and dark blue of Far East Command (which are also smaller).

[Giorgio N]

I am sure you will find that the red FGS letters go with standard RAF roundels, the blue roundels and flashes belong to the Burma/India theatre. Greek roundels were completely different being blue and white, much different to the light and dark blue of Far East Command (which are also smaller).

Look better at the sheet: around and below the FGS letters there are dark blue circles and rectangles that are to be applied over the red parts of roundels and fin flashes.

[old thumper]

Look better at the sheet: around and below the FGS letters there are dark blue circles and rectangles that are to be applied over the red parts of roundels and fin flashes.

I see them now, I could only see the SEAC roundels in the bottom right before.

[GMK]

Thanks for the assistance, gentlemen.

I took some pics of the model in the museum, it had lighter blue markings that were equally proportioned & the blue/white/blue spinner. Seems 'inspired by' rather than strictly accurate.

Thanks again.

[old thumper]

I have heard a mention that the Greeks may have received a small number of Hurricanes (up to 3) before the fall of Greece in 1941. However I have never seen any actual evidence of this so strongly doubt it. Even if the Greeks had of received these few Hurricanes in the Spring of 1941 then I would be very surprised if they were painted in desert camouflage.

But then it never does to be over confident with these sort of things.

[Graham Boak]

It looks as though the Hurricanes will initially have had Roundel Blue used to overpaint the red, and hence the dark appearance in photos. One of the Hurricane photos in the pdf shows a lighter colour but this appears similar to a faded Roundel Blue. The lighter colour is the correct shade for Greek markings, hence presumably the reason for using this colour on the Museum aircraft, but a lighter roundel (of Greek proportions) can be seen in the pdf on a later Baltimore. Whether the Hurricanes remained in service long enough to carry the more correct lighter blue is perhaps the relevant question.

[Shalako]

I don't 'do' 1/72nd, but the Revell IIB/IIC kit IIRC has errors in wing chord, the rear cockpit bulkhead is too far back and some spurious fabric detail, the 'triangle' behind the 'doghouse', follow the line of the hood rail. The last is IMHO the big problem, as fixing it is a lot of work, eg sand off and recreate fabric detail.

and the real thing, no 'Triangle' and well shows the stringer lines.

Have patience, something tells me that soon Airfix will issue a new-tool Hurricane as it did with the Mk.I!!!

[tonyot]

Have patience, something tells me that soon Airfix will issue a new-tool Hurricane as it did with the Mk.I!!!

Oh I do hope so!

[StevSmar]

Have patience, something tells me that soon Airfix will issue a new-tool Hurricane as it did with the Mk.I!!!

I wish they would do one in 1/48!

[85sqn]

I made the 335 (Greek) Sqn Hurri IIb a while ago using the Model Alliance decals: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234955742-desert-fighters-148/?hl=%2Bgreek+%2Bhurricane

Its The FG-S but with standard RAF roundels. The accompanying book On Target profile 12- Hurricane provides some info about that aircraft. I'll have to check later to see if Hellenic roundels were mentioned.

[Troy Smith]

I made the 335 (Greek) Sqn Hurri IIb a while ago using the Model Alliance decals: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234955742-desert-fighters-148/?hl=%2Bgreek+%2Bhurricane

Its The FG-S but with standard RAF roundels. The accompanying book On Target profile 12- Hurricane provides some info about that aircraft. I'll have to check later to see if Hellenic roundels were mentioned.

IIRC the On Target book is just profiles.

The actual photo is on page 1.

Given that the individual letter is 'sigma' I'd not be surprised in the roundel centre got painted blue, the better question is how long does it take to repaint a roundel centre blue, and how long did then remain blue!

Long enough for a photo

also http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/questions-on-kits-decals-tools-and-pilots/greek-hurricane-mk-ib-egypt-1-48-a-31087.html

has a different shot of FG-Sigma

and http://www.haf.gr/el/articles/hurricane/

which has quite a few photos.

some are standard RAF for sure

here's the famous one, remember if just the centre got redone, the outer ring should be faded as blue did fade in the desert.

this is interesting, remember red was the standard spinner colour

note FG-H, the spinner is paler than the front of the fin flash.

The South Africans used orange roundel centres as well.

I'd suggest that the fuselage roundels and maybe even the fin flash got the red over painted until the RAF went no.

The fascination is that of modeller for the unusual.

cheers

T

PS

Greek site says this

Note : For the ethnosima brought the Greek Hurricane not adequately acquired data. Judging from the photos, which are black and often of poor quality, we can say that in most of the displayed aircraft ethnosima is British. A few photographs, illustrated with Hurricane Greek ethnosima. In this advocate and the testimonies of those who threw them. On this basis we can go on safe conclusion that Greek ethnosima the sides and bottom surfaces, certainly never on top, brought little Hurricane MkI at the beginning of 335. All other Hurricane both the 335 and the 336, brought British ethnosima.

Though personally think there is good case for the 2 pics above having blue centres.