Spitfire XIV clipped wings

[wellsprop]

Hi all,

I need a hand here, I'm trying to work out why some Spitfire XIV low back Spitfire's had clipped wings and others didn't. I made a diorama a while back, both Spitfires having clipped wings, subsequently I found out that, in fact, MV260 did have normal span wings at one point (not to say it didn't have clips eventually?).

Indeed, all the Spitfire XIV's I have made, I have modelled as short wingspan, I also discovered that NH745 had normal span tips. In a conversation with Colin@Freightdog, I found out that MV268 JEJ also had normal tips.

I seem to recall someone on this forum (possibly Edgar) saying that there was some wrinkling on the skin of Spitfire XIV wings and, because of this, all XIV's were to have clipped wings (until the XVIII).

Anyone have any information on this?

Ben

[Graham Boak]

I think you are seeing the difference between the FR Mk.XIVs, which had clipped wings as a consequence of their low-level role, and the F Mk.XIVs which operated in the higher-altitude air superiority role, for which the full wings would be preferable. All three of the serials you quote refer to the F Mk.XIV in the air superiority units.

[wellsprop]

I think you are seeing the difference between the FR Mk.XIVs, which had clipped wings as a consequence of their low-level role, and the F Mk.XIVs which operated in the higher-altitude air superiority role, for which the full wings would be preferable. All three of the serials you quote refer to the F Mk.XIV in the air superiority units.

I'm unsure of this, as even within 127 Wing there were Spitfire XIV's (MV263 and MV268) which had clipped and full wingspan respectively (both of these are F Mk XIV's).

I can only assume that some got converted and others didn't. IIRC, it was a very simple job of simply switching over the wingtips, as the tips are not an integral part of the wing.

Ben

[Edgar]

The clipping of the XIV's wingtips was intended solely for those carrying a centre-line bomb, not pure fighters, though it appears to have found its way onto the F.R.XIV, which was intended for low-level use.

When the Air Ministry wanted to add fuselage fuel tanks, clip wings, plus all the other mods which went into the XVI, the 11 Group C.O. flatly refused to have them, since they adversely affected manoeuvrability, and he had to expect his pilots to come up against jets.

The mod is entirely dated post-war, as well, with leaflets only being issued to the Service; Supermarine never incorporated it onto the production line.

Time allowed to do the work was 9 hours, and, unlike the tip on the early Vs, it was metal, and had built-in lights.

[wellsprop]

The clipping of the XIV's wingtips was intended solely for those carrying a centre-line bomb, not pure fighters, though it appears to have found its way onto the F.R.XIV, which was intended for low-level use.

When the Air Ministry wanted to add fuselage fuel tanks, clip wings, plus all the other mods which went into the XVI, the 11 Group C.O. flatly refused to have them, since they adversely affected manoeuvrability, and he had to expect his pilots to come up against jets.

The mod is entirely dated post-war, as well, with leaflets only being issued to the Service; Supermarine never incorporated it onto the production line.

Time allowed to do the work was 9 hours, and, unlike the tip on the early Vs, it was metal, and had built-in lights.

Cheers, Edgar. It's interesting that some XIV's must have had clipped tips fitted, such as MV263...

Ben

[Nigel Foster60]

Thank you all for the interesting information in this thread.

I have always thought a Spitfire without the wingtips is not a true Spitfire.

Thus I have not got involved with building a "16".

This makes much more sense of the subject.

Thanks

Nigel

[gingerbob]

Here's a previous discussion, with some (not definitive) info on the wingtips. And another with some contradictory (?) evidence.

bob

Edited March 22, 2015 by gingerbob

[modelglue]

I'm not sure if this will help, seeing it is a XIX, but I came across this just last night and saved the page for future reference:

Here is the page.

Edit: Further down the page there is this XIV with clipped wings:

Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XIV, N54SF has been registered to Chino Warbirds since March 2004. Data about N54SF from the Airworthy Spitfires Page of the Military Airshows in the U.K. web site:

Ordered as PR.XI but built as F.XIV at Chattis Hill. To 29 MU on March 13th 1945. Shipped to Bombay, arriving May 15th, then probably stored until struck off charge on July 31st 1947, and sold to Indian AF. Eventually became a gate guardian at Dehra Dun, then bought by Doug Arnold in 1978 and returned to the UK, being registered to Warbirds of Great Britain as G-WWII on July 9th 1979. Restoration to Mk VIII began, but acquired by the Fighter Collection and rebuilt as Mk XIV by Charles Church and Historic Flying. First flight May 22nd 1995. Exchanged for P-40 from Christophe Jacquard in November 1997. Registered F-AZSJ. Damaged in 1998 due to taxiing accident. To 'The Fighter Collection', Duxford in March 2002 and re-registered G-WWII and operated by TFC for Tom Friedkins (Chino Warbird Inc.)

[wellsprop]

Here's a previous discussion, with some (not definitive) info on the wingtips. And another with some contradictory (?) evidence.

bob

Seems it is possible to go as far as saying for sure that all FR XIV's had clipped wings and most XIV's had normal span wings....

Still no closer to working out if MV260 definitely had normal span tips, the only two photos of it aren't close enough to accurately say either way.

My suspicion is that it has normal tips, making my model a little incorrect

Ben

Edited March 22, 2015 by wellsprop

[John M]

Eh Ben,

MV260 went on to serve with 416 Sqn RCAF as DN*J. Published and unpublished photos show DN*J MV260 as having 'Normal Wingtips'.

2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. Four C. Shores C. Thomas page 747 centre photo shows MV260 taxiing out with DN*H NH915.

DN*J shows 'normal' and NH915 show 'clipped'

John

[Max Headroom]

Here is an example from 132 Sqn. I first saw this photo in the Air Britain "Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" and it's out somewhere in the Far East. The book gives the XIV as entering service with the squadron on May 1945.

http://ww2-weapons.com/Aircrafts/Fighters/British/Supermarine/Spitfire/images-Mk-XIV/Spitfire-XIV-132sqd-px800.jpg

Trevor

[wellsprop]

Eh Ben,

MV260 went on to serve with 416 Sqn RCAF as DN*J. Published and unpublished photos show DN*J MV260 as having 'Normal Wingtips'.

2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. Four C. Shores C. Thomas page 747 centre photo shows MV260 taxiing out with DN*H NH915.

DN*J shows 'normal' and NH915 show 'clipped'

John

Yep, that proves I put the wrong tips on then! Oops Ah well, maybe that's what the pilots are discussing and pointing to in my diorama "I swear the wings were longer when I parked it"...

Ben

Edited March 22, 2015 by wellsprop

[gingerbob]

Just ran across another comment:

AVIA 15/757

166A PS15(Mods) to PS15a 3/45

re AMC Meeting 746, 19/3/45

reference was made to the 'agreement' reached at the meeting held between DDTD, PS15a and the firm, and the LTC wished to recommend officially the following aircraft nomenclature.

FR XIV F Mk. XIV fitted with 31 gal tank, one oblique camera, clipped wings (Mod. 1537)

and...

167A PA to DDTD to various 24/3/45

Spitfire FR Mark XIV

...has been released by CRD for operational use in temperate and tropical climates.

The Spitfire FR Mark XIV... is a fighter recon version of the F XIV, but differs from it in that it carries one oblique camera and an additional 31 gallon fuel tank in the rear fuselage; an improved rear view hood is provided and the wing tips are clipped.

bob

[Guest]

Just ran across another comment:

AVIA 15/757

166A PS15(Mods) to PS15a 3/45

re AMC Meeting 746, 19/3/45

reference was made to the 'agreement' reached at the meeting held between DDTD, PS15a and the firm, and the LTC wished to recommend officially the following aircraft nomenclature.

FR XIV F Mk. XIV fitted with 31 gal tank, one oblique camera, clipped wings (Mod. 1537)

and...

167A PA to DDTD to various 24/3/45

Spitfire FR Mark XIV

...has been released by CRD for operational use in temperate and tropical climates.

The Spitfire FR Mark XIV... is a fighter recon version of the F XIV, but differs from it in that it carries one oblique camera and an additional 31 gallon fuel tank in the rear fuselage; an improved rear view hood is provided and the wing tips are clipped.

bob

Now that we have that all sorted we just need a new tool 1/48 MkXIV. Any wagers on whether we will see one in the 21st Century? And concurrently, any wagers on how many resin corrections it will require? My money is on Airfix in 2016, and by the way, I'm betting with US Confederate money from 1861, any takers? Edited March 31, 2015 by Spitfire addict