CedB Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Well I can't zoom those images but they look good to me Steve Far be it from me though to distract you from trying out the PE method for us to get them just right 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) I love these Steve, I think you have cracked it. Did you say you've an isosceles triangle set that you can use to make fifty odd for me? No?? OK, shame... Someone said they weren't quite... I think you need industrial processes to complete this process, after all this is production line stuff and companies don't get paid unless they produce, proper You have punched/die stamped out the shape nicely The next industrial process you need is PLANISHING which means flattening the finished blank so you can process it further A flat, smooth metal surface is ideal but you will get the same effect using a melamine surface This is why my bench is totally melamine Lay the blanks (see? Industrial terminology creeps in) on the flat face and then rub them flat with another flat surface Something as commonplace as a table knife might do What you are doing is imparting evenness so when you trim and bend they all begin from the same place The ones you tested with are the usual Fritagamazingly good, don't give up on it Unless its to try some of Keith's One Thou shim 😊 Edited September 17, 2017 by perdu 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmatt Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 This is still 72nd scale, right? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamden Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Those VG's look good to me, have you tried your test piece with a shot of colour? - just to see the effect.............. Roger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abat Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I agree that they'd look the part under a primer and lick of paint. You can always re-think it after the primer goes on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 3 hours ago, bearmatt said: This is still 72nd scale, right? Scary, ain't it? (I think the actual word should be "intimidating", though) Ciao 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) On 17/09/2017 at 8:50 AM, perdu said: I love these Steve, I think you have cracked it. Did you say you've an isosceles triangle set that you can use to make fifty odd for me? Nice flattery Bill The answer is no. On 17/09/2017 at 8:50 AM, perdu said: The next industrial process you need is PLANISHING which means flattening the finished blank so you can process it further Thanks Bill. Great tip, gratefully acknowledged The answer is still no. On 17/09/2017 at 9:25 AM, Hamden said: have you tried your test piece with a shot of colour? - just to see the effect.............. I'll see if I can finesse a better method of getting consistency in shape and try Bill's planishing technique first. In other news..... I decided - whether as yet more displacement activity from building the bl**dy hawks; in a spirit of scientific enquiry or simply out of idle curiosity - to have a bash at home brew etching. Actually - the VGs seem to me to be about as simple a starting exercise as I'm likely to get - and so if not now - then when? I should say at the outset that all I'm doing is following the step by step guide that Mark (@Cheshiretaurus) posted on the forum way back in August 2013 here: So in the event that I do have any success - all the innovation, talent and skill is Mark's. And if I don't have any success then all the muppetry is mine for failing to adequately follow Mark's admirably clear instructions........ I probably should have tried this quietly in the background and posted about it only if and when it worked. But what the hell. If I did that it would only look like I'd gone AWOL again from the forum when I had nowt else to post...... Everything about this is new to me. Even producing the bl**min art work above. I've never used drawing software before ( @perdu kindly produced some artwork for me to use in some home - brew decals in the JP build) and so I downloaded Autodesk Graphic onto my Mac (and iPad for good measure.....). Cue the need for another step by step guide from t'internet......... Anyways - after a bit of practice I produced the simple artwork above - which is for the front of the brass. I've followed Mark's instructions and included alignment marks and I've produced a second (mirror image ) artwork for the back of the brass but left the VGs and mounting stubs floating so that the bottom 0.5mm of there mounting stub will be half thickness after etching to make it easier to separate the VGs from the brass frame. The VGs are only 1mm long and 0.5mm tall and the mounting stub is 0.3mm wide x 1.5mm long to locate into 0.3mm holes drilled in the wing. Actually they look ridiculously tiny when printed - and I've some concerns (i) about the ability of my Epson inkjet printer to print to such fine margins (ii) about my ability to line the front and back artwork up and (iii) generally...... So I've created a second set of front and back artwork scaled up 150% (but keeping the mounting stubs at 0.3mm) so that the VGs are 1.5 mm long and 0.75mm high and it may be that these somewhat overscale versions will be easier to create and possibly even look better. Here are test prints of both sizes of VGs (1mm and 1.5mm) front and back artwork: And as honorary 'North' (i.e. tight) - I've followed Mark's technique to save wastage on OHP film by cutting to size and taping it to these test pieces for printing. That way I've got all 4 front's and backs from one OHP slide. After all I'm absolutely certain to have to do this all several times to get the process to work (if I ever do) and so I'd better not be wasteful at the outset : And the OHP films after printing. I don't have many settings to play with on my printer - but these were done on the B/W setting at maximum quality. Time will tell how satisfactory they prove to be in fixing the resist to the brass under UV light........ And finally for now - here's the front and back artwork of the 1mm VGs, one on top of t'other and lined up. I think it looks promising and ready to move on to the next steps of applying the resist to the brass and exposing the resist to UV using the artwork..... I know from Marks's guide that gauging the right amount of UV exposure is a matter of trial and error as it depends on just how black the artwork is, and the characteristics of the UV light used. So I'll probably be repeating the above steps many times over the next several days. I won'y bore you with repeated photo's of the same steps......... Comments welcome - this is a wholly new technique for me so I'm not pretending to instruct anyone on how to do it. Just sharing my muppetry in following in the master's footsteps Cheers Steve PS: On 14/09/2017 at 1:30 PM, Kirk said: <Mrs Doyle> Go on. Go on. Go on, go on, go on. </Mrs Doyle> On 16/09/2017 at 11:37 PM, CedB said: Far be it from me though to distract you from trying out the PE method for us to get them just right This is at least partly your fault......... Edited September 19, 2017 by Fritag 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshiretaurus Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Good start Steve, artwork looks promising, I'll be on hand for tech support. Cant wait to see the results. CT 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Cheshiretaurus said: I'll be on hand for tech support. Excellent. Ta Mark Question. Could I actually dispense with using a back artwork? I'm using 0.125mm sheet and it wouldn't matter if I lost half that thickness - scale wise it would actually be better. If I don't have any resist at all on the back of the brass would the whole thing end up a mess or would I perhaps end up with thinner VGs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Steve, you do realize your next step in modelling is 3D printing, don't you? Following this HB PE with much anticipation Ciao 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 This has to be the most interesting technicality thread we've had for age I'm going to love this ☺ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshiretaurus Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Fritag said: Excellent. Ta Mark Question. Could I actually dispense with using a back artwork? I'm using 0.125mm sheet and it wouldn't matter if I lost half that thickness - scale wise it would actually be better. If I don't have any resist at all on the back of the brass would the whole thing end up a mess or would I perhaps end up with thinner VGs? Not to sure if that would work as the rate of erosion will not be uniform anyway and may eat all the way through is places, if you want to do a single side etch the then have the back completely covered. There is even thinner brass stock availible down to .001" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K-S-258-Assorted-Size-Sheet-Brass-Shim-001-002-003-005-Thickness-2nd1P-/171612268695 this could be better that the 0.005 (0.125mm) you are useing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 Ok Ta Mark 36 minutes ago, Cheshiretaurus said: There is even thinner brass stock availible down to .001" Hmm. @keefr22 also mentioned this. [Seconds pass..........] Ok I have some thinner brass sheet on order One of em will surely be ideal....surely? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Steve old boy, you are a brick (I think that's what they said...) I will happily take part responsibility for encouraging you to try the PE and it's looking good so far - tiny little VGs, bless 'em. I've just had a look through my stationery supplies and it would appear that I've thrown away my OHP film stock, probably in about 1988 when PowerPoint spoiled our fun. Could you do me / us a favour and let us know where you get the supplies from please (if you don't use Mark's links)? Who knows, I might have a go, sometime... I have my fingers crossed for you, oh brave pioneer! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xffw45343tg Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Woop, woop, woop! I *think* that somewhere I've got some "artwork" (loose term meaning 2D AutoCAD drawing) I did of the T1 instrument panel based on some reasonably accurate measurements of the real thing (XX343? in Boscombe Down). It's too late now of course, but if you decide that professional arguing is not for you any more and you wish to upgrade to full time micro Hawk production, you're welcome to use it as a basis for your cockpit set. Might have side consoles too - can't remember. In the mean time I'd better go and buy some popcorn. Kirk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizon Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 If I may chirp in here... Refering to the test fits of the VGs on the wing: note that the VG's are mounted at an angle of about 22 degrees (if memory serves me correctly) relative to the longituinal axis. Since you are going into that insane amount of detail.... Interesting also, at least on the Hawks that I had to measure up, is that the bit of the angle that gets stuck to the wing surface is sometines inboard and sometimes outboard. Always consistent per airframe, but different accross the fleet. The exact spanwise position also varied. However the chord-wise position is perfectly fixed. Interesting approach to your modelling detailling - you are setting a verry high challenge for the tripplet of Hawks I am planning. This is a fascinating thread, keep it going! R 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Steve, I'm sure there would be a healthy market for Hawk VG PE sheets. You know, from those with 1 or a few 'Orks in their stash.... Keith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 always nice to see someone expanding their skill set, particularly when I can pick up some tips. I've often thought of trying this out but never pushed myself to purchase the necessary alchemists kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massimo Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 I haven't congrated you for the wonderful landing gear yet. May be a bit on the dark side, but another real gem for these lovely kits you're building. I think these nice little things will be another milestone.To me the one which can be easily cut and bent and is of the right thickness.I'm curious bout your plan B home-made PE parts, but I think they might be too thick... I'm really curious to see what you can perform this time!!! Well done for everything!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Etch+Fritag=Epic. Watching intently... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomoshenko Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Wow Steve. I have bookmarked Mr C's photo etch instructions with a view to experimenting someday, now we'll be treated to a Fritag walkthrough - Bostin! I'm sure Cedb will be on hand to recommend a supplier of xenomorph blood as an alternative etching acid if you get stuck, or possibly knows where you can get a Star Trek replicator. In the meantime please be so kind to reproduce these designs I have just PM'd you. Yes I know those miniature portraits of Adam Smith and HM Queen look a little bit like £20 notes, but that's just erm er just.coincidental... 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Thank you, thank you, thank you, Steve!!!! Gene K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) On 19/09/2017 at 11:41 AM, CedB said: Could you do me / us a favour and let us know where you get the supplies from please (if you don't use Mark's links)? Who knows, I might have a go, sometime... Ced, I got the stuff on eBay back in December 16 - when the thought that I might have a bash at PE first began to crystallise in my mind. I think I followed CT's links - but I'll go back through my emails tomorrow and see wot I can find On 19/09/2017 at 2:24 PM, Rizon said: Refering to the test fits of the VGs on the wing: note that the VG's are mounted at an angle of about 22 degrees (if memory serves me correctly) relative to the longituinal axis. Since you are going into that insane amount of detail.... Interesting also, at least on the Hawks that I had to measure up, is that the bit of the angle that gets stuck to the wing surface is sometines inboard and sometimes outboard. Always consistent per airframe, but different accross the fleet. The exact spanwise position also varied. However the chord-wise position is perfectly fixed. Thanks Rizon. I love that observation about the horizontal element but being either inboard or outboard depending..........depending on wot one wonders? Maybe it's Jim who worked on the morning shift did em inboard and Bert on the afternoon shift did em outboard...... Ok. So. I've ploughed bull-headedly on with the embryo etch effort....... (1) Front and back artwork lined up and taped. Dunno at this stage whether the inkjet printer output is adequate. Feeling insecure........ (2) Brass cut and cleaned with rubbing alcohol. (3) The resist liberated temporarily from its black plastic light-proof security blanket. Cor this is stressful.......... (4) Following, as closely as inherent Fritag muppetry will permit, Mark's technique of applying a large water droplet to aid positioning the resist. (5) Resist smoothed in place to the best of the Fritag ability. The technique got easier by the time I was on the fourth effort. (6) Sandwiched in paper and fed through the old laminator I bought so long ago and found I had no use for that it ended up in the bowels of the attic......This bit at least was easy to do (7) After repeating steps (4) to (6) on t'other side of each bit of brass, I ended up with two bits of brass with resist on both sides. Feelings of blundering about in the dark - but thank goodness Mark has illuminated the way (8) Sandwiched the brass + resist between glass as per CT's instructions - with cardboard on the back. (9) 45 seconds on each side under the UV nail light (that it was very embarrassing to order on eBay.........) (10) And this his where I'm at now with the resist-image on the Brass. This one is the 1.5mm VG and it still has the protective layer on the resist at the mo. Front: Back: Exhausted now................. If we had any wine in the house I'd have a glass. We're bound to have some Gin somewhere tho........... I've stuck em to one side out of the light and I'll see how the developing and etching goes tomorrow..... Steve Edited September 20, 2017 by Fritag 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshiretaurus Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 That exposure looks spot on, nicely done, If your not going to develop it in the caustic immediately then make sure you keep it in the dark. so far so good, fingers crossed. CT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshiretaurus Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Ah didnt read the last bit, "I've stuck em to one side out of the light and I'll see how the developing and etching goes tomorrow....." note to self....must start reading in full before posting replies. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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