Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

[Whitewolf]

So based on what we know, the replica is painted in the same near as damn it colour of the original which has yet to be clearly identified, and, as yet, none of the model paint companies have produced a jar or tin of paint of that colour.  

[Work In Progress]

What would you have them make? Has the claimed model painted in the original paint ever been seen and photographed in favourable circumstances with proper lighting and white balance, or ideally had a densitometer put on it, or even been made available for someone to hold up reliable chips and fan-decks to it? If not, and I've certain never seen any physical evidence of it, how is a paint manufacturer supposed to know what they are supposed to make? It seems highly suspect that, as far as I can see, no-one's ever photographed this model.

 

What we actually *know* is that a certain claim has been made, but unless I have missed something we have not seen any actual evidence to support the claim.  If we take it at face value that whoever specified the paint for the replica had access to the model, the most natural thing in the world would seem to be to have arranged for the model - itself a highly relevant and important historical artifact, based on the story - to be brought to the museum for the unveiling and for the publicity shots. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

True enough, but we are overlooking the small scale of actual interest in this.  Yes, we get all excited about such details but most people, most modellers, simply don't care.  Just how many modellers at any one time are going to be making a model of the Spitfire prototype?  How many of them are going to buy this particular tin of paint?   How many of them never use the particular chosen solvent/company?  In view of the wide range of light blue-greys available in model paint ranges, how many would simply look for the nearest available, or mix their own?  I can picture the questions on Britmodeller now... "What's the nearest in Vallejo?"  Of those who do care, how many would argue over the accuracy of the rendition, or the details of the story and the traced link.

 

Expected sales figures for this colour - small to tiny.

[Work In Progress]

very fair point, though I keep being amazed at other things appearing which would have seemed to me to be commercially unviable so I am never sure where the boundaries lie. Halfords and B&Q will make me a nice aerosol or pot of water-based acrylic of anything for which I can take in a decent couple of square inches of sample colour, so that's my benchmark for the low end of production.  I've had superb matches from both suppliers for full size car and aviation purposes. 

 

Incidentally, my one and only K5054, some years ago, was in someone's commercial attempt at RLM 65 and no-one ever pulled a face at it

Edited April 10, 2023 by Work In Progress

[PhantomBigStu]

if the Rolls Royce spitfire was in the correct blue here’s a picture of it https://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/news-photo/supermarine-spitfire-xiv-g-algt-owned-by-rolls-royce-in-the-news-photo/109100352

[Work In Progress]

Lovely photo but taken at golden hour for maximum glamour, meaning the colours are way off - the white of the fuselage and fin/rudder are practically orange. If you rebalance the rudder to get rid of the yellow cast and return it to actual white the blue looks a lot colder. 

[PhantomBigStu]

59 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

Lovely photo but taken at golden hour for maximum glamour, meaning the colours are way off - the white of the fuselage and fin/rudder are practically orange. If you rebalance the rudder to get rid of the yellow cast and return it to actual white the blue looks a lot colder. 

Indeed found a better one https://media.abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0512/1777560-large.jpg

[Johnson]

Ian Huntley, an aviation enthusiast who made many observations during WW2, wrote about the Spitfire prototype colours in his column in Scale Aircraft Modelling, Aug 1986. This is just the part of the much longer article about the Spitfire prototype K5054’s colours. I haven’t transcribed the entire article in deference to copyright considerations.

 

It won’t definitively answer the question of the prototype's 'blue' colour, but it’s an interesting piece of history which just goes to show how long we’ve been pondering the question.

 

SPITFIRE K5054

 

It is assumed that this very interesting prototype passed through the same four basic stages of paint scheme as many other contemporary prototypes although I can only vouch for two. The first a ‘blue’, when at Hendon on 27 June 1936 and the second, ‘standard camouflage’, when K5054 flew into Northolt on or about 24 April 1937.

The most interesting aspect of these two visual sightings was that after the start of the war in 1939, my attempts to put colours to the two actual events were greatly aided by my being sent actual colours stripped from a 1936 Cellon* catalogue by a relative.

There were probably some 20 or more colour samples, many of which were trimmed to a suitable size, and put in a montage with spitfire sketches and magazine cuttings in a picture frame.

The Spitfire prototype was, according to an original 1936 statement by Cellon, painted in French Grey and one of the catalogue colours used that title. In about 1962, however, the matter of K5054’s colouring was raised. Fortunately, the original montage was still in my possession and this was passed to Cellon for comment.

Ex Cellon managing director W. Shilcock felt the sample had probably faded over a number of years and his opinion was was that the original colour was perhaps a slightly brighter blue-grey.

Over a decade later, research into the Royal Observer Corp Post 17/D2 records revealed a note by an Observer attending the 1936 Hendon Display which rather upset things as he had commented that the colour was an ‘aquamarine’.

Some further work on that reference suggests that a more pale turquoise may have been more appropriate, i.e., with at least a hint of green rather than at the blue-grey end of the spectrum.

Recent work on these colours shows that exposure of slightly turquoise colours does make them less greenish and more towards the blue colour. Unfortunately, just how much fade cannot be established at this point in time although further investigations are taking place within the Spitfire Society.

 

TODAY’S SCENE

With the recent ‘Spitfire 50’ happenings in various parts of the country, an upsurge of interest in colour seems to have taken place, particularly with regard K5054’s appearance at the time of the first flight.

Various claims have also been made by persons having actual original pieces of the ‘blue’ colour. That is, I’m told, pieces of actual metal.

This colour has varied from being called ‘blue-grey’ to out and out ‘deep turquoise green’, and like most of these claims, each needs to be checked thoroughly before any constructive observations can be made.

It is fortunate perhaps that the original 1936 Cellon colour samples are still in being, albeit somewhat faded.

So, today’s scene is somewhat disturbed as it stands and a lot of of further examination and research is needed if we are to arrive at a satisfactory answer.

As to the actual ‘blue’, it now seems necessary to re-examine the remaining pieces of the Cellon colour chips and determine exactly how much fade or deterioration has taken place.

It could well be that the original fresh colour should be slightly towards the aquamarine or turquoise, and that Cellon’s estimation of being nearer to what they called Supermarine’s Seaplane Grey was not quite correct. The latter colour appears in Schneider Trophy brochures of 1931 and has many subsequent mentions in various adverts. However, although the two have been linked by name to the prototype Spitfire, they may not have been one and the same colour.

 

*I looked up ‘Cellon’, a paint manufacturer in Richmond who made paint for Spitfires. A 1941 advert;

 

 

[Dave Fleming]

Sounds rather like the RAF Phantom F-4Js, whose light blue-grey colour could appear green under certain light conditions (and visibly changed between cloudy weather and direct sunlight). Thought to be the result of a thin top coat over a yellow primer

Edited April 11, 2023 by Dave Fleming

[Giorgio N]

On 4/10/2023 at 8:44 AM, Whitewolf said:

So based on what we know, the replica is painted in the same near as damn it colour of the original which has yet to be clearly identified, and, as yet, none of the model paint companies have produced a jar or tin of paint of that colour.  

 

Even the day the exact paint will be identified, the likelyhood of a company issuing a specific paint is small. This was a paint that was used for a single aircraft for a limited span of its short life. And as much as the prototype Spitfire may have been an important aircraft, it's not one of those subject reproduced particularly often.

[112 Squadron]

Spitfire JF 321 carburetor intake & underwing radiators

 

Currently, I am working on my 1/72 JF 321 Spitfire Mk XIV prototype model. Judging from this well known picture am I right that this particular aircraft has a short carburetor intake like the early Mk IXs and Mk VIII/IX type underwing radiators rather than those that were on the production XIVs:

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spitfire/Prototypes/pages/Spitfire-14-Prototype-JF321-on-the-ground-England-web-01.html

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by 112 Squadron

[FinnAndersen]

17 hours ago, 112 Squadron said:

Currently, I am working on my 1/72 JF 321 Spitfire Mk XIV prototype model. Judging from this well known picture am I right that this particular aircraft has a short carburetor intake like the early Mk IXs and Mk VIII/IX type underwing radiators rather than those that were on the production XIVs:

I'd say no. The XII intake was a tad bigger than the early IX, and I believe this it what I see. As for the radiators, well, I'm away from references, but the Griffon required much more cooling than a Merlin, so...

 

HTH Finn

[112 Squadron]

On 13/04/2023 at 15:08, FinnAndersen said:

I'd say no. The XII intake was a tad bigger than the early IX, and I believe this it what I see. As for the radiators, well, I'm away from references, but the Griffon required much more cooling than a Merlin, so...

 

HTH Finn

 

JF 317 obviously had already the standard radiators and intake:

 

 

However, the old SAM Publication Modellers Datafile #5 about the Griffon Spitfires is showing a drawing of the prototype Mk XIVs JF 317 - JF 321, which were originally MK VIIIs, with small radiators. Could it be that they were retrofitted later on because of the extra cooling requirements of the Griffon engine?

Edited April 25, 2023 by 112 Squadron

[Graham Boak]

If so, I wonder just how the Supermarine designers manage to create such an engineering masterpiece without having realised that a bigger engine would need more cooling?

 

The Mk.XII managed because it had the Mk.V's tropical radiator, which was larger than that of the temperate single stage Merlin. 

 

Behind this, there is considerable progress in the art of engine cooling, going from pure water requiring  very large radiators, water+glycol in the BoB period, to pressurised water later in the war.  This meant that additional power could be achieved without excessive amounts of drag.  There would be no horrible surprises.

[112 Squadron]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

If so, I wonder just how the Supermarine designers manage to create such an engineering masterpiece without having realised that a bigger engine would need more cooling?

 

The Mk.XII managed because it had the Mk.V's tropical radiator, which was larger than that of the temperate single stage Merlin. 

 

Behind this, there is considerable progress in the art of engine cooling, going from pure water requiring  very large radiators, water+glycol in the BoB period, to pressurised water later in the war.  This meant that additional power could be achieved without excessive amounts of drag.  There would be no horrible surprises.

 

That is a good point. From that perspective a later retrofit seems to be little conceivable. I can only agree since my initial guess was that the drawings in that old Datafile book were not accurate.

Edited April 13, 2023 by 112 Squadron

[blockheadgreen_]

Making a 3D model for sim use and I'm wondering if anyone has the line drawings for the 2-stage Griffon Aero Vee filter? The specific sheet is 35638 Sheet 33 from the F Mk 21 drawings (or 38838 Sheet 11 from the Seafire 46 set). I have the line drawings for the engine cowl but not the filter!

Edited April 16, 2023 by blockheadgreen_

[derekS]

 I can`t remember where I read it,but apparently in order to save aluminium,the practice of 

painting Spitfire fuselages internally in aly ceased in about 1942

@Paul Lucas said ,in the thread on repainting aircraft that one of the primers used was a

light grey.

So,I`m wondering if the inside of Spitfire fuselages,other than the cockpit,were in light grey.

After all,in a b&w photo it would look very similar. 

Any thoughts?

 

Derek S

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, derekS said:

So,I`m wondering if the inside of Spitfire fuselages,other than the cockpit,were in light grey.

AFAIK. No.   Ages ago a salvaged Australian Mk.VIII  photo was posted,  built May 44, aluminium inside. 

see here for a thread on the subject, the pic will show if you open it in a new tab.

 

[derekS]

Thanks,Troy.It seemed like a possibility,so worth asking.

Thanks again.

 

Derek S

[PhantomBigStu]

Found myself with the new airfix starter spitfire Vc, fancy building it but not in the day fighter scheme, bit bored of it, as it’s the starter I know options are limited but this one eduard kit caught my eye, am I fine with doing it?  Though will have  to check my white code letters are ok and find matches for deep sky and light med blue

Edited June 28, 2023 by PhantomBigStu

[Meatbox8]

50 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Found myself with the new airfix starter spitfire Vc, fancy building it but not in the day fighter scheme, bit bored of it, as it’s the starter I know options are limited but this one eduard kit caught my eye, am I fine with doing it?  Though will have  to check my white code letters are ok and find matches for deep sky and light med blue

I don't think the starter set includes the Vokes filter, which really limits the colour schemes given that the vast majority of VCs operated in the middle East, Burma and Australia. Looks like you are OK for Prosser Hanks aircraft though. The standard kit doesn't have the fuel filler cap so I'd  imagine the starter set is the same. The other issue with the standard kit is that both propellor spinners are poor representations of the real things. Presumably this also applies to the starter kit. There is a correction set made by Barracuda Studios available from Hannants.

 

The DK Decals sheet 'Malta Spitfire Aces' has decals for this aircraft albeit in Dark Earth and Mid-Stone over Light Mediterranean Blue. Presumably this was from before the camouflage markings were toned down.

 

 

[PatG]

I never realised that the XII had an enlarged starboard radiator as I always understood that it was based upon the Vc which had the same radiator as all other V's and I've never seen this mentioned before?

 

Pat. 

[stevehnz]

4 hours ago, PatG said:

I never realised that the XII had an enlarged starboard radiator as I always understood that it was based upon the Vc which had the same radiator as all other V's and I've never seen this mentioned before?

 

Pat. 

Afaik, the external dimensions of the Mk V tropical radiator didn't change, but a larger (deeper?) core was housed in the original radiator housing.

Steve.

[Work In Progress]

3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Afaik, the external dimensions of the Mk V tropical radiator didn't change, but a larger (deeper?) core was housed in the original radiator housing.

Steve.

 

They used to give you two different housings in the late-70s Airfix 1/48 Vb, though the visible difference between the two was pretty marginal

[franky boy]

Out of interest what’s the general school of thinking on the camo colours for Prosser Hanks Spitfire BR498? It’s on a Montex sheet sheet wearing dark earth/mud stone while Eduard has it as above in Stu’s post.
 

Looking at the well known photo of it parked in front of a Beaufighter I’d say it’s dark earth/mid stone but did it have a re paint at some point?

 

James