Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

[bigbadbadge]

36 minutes ago, 303sqn said:

It is darker than the fuselage.

 

Thanks 303sqn  do you know i feel a bit of a wally now as I have seen that photo before and forgot about it, doh!!! I had noted it previously as being helpful in making the rear view mirror. I am going to say I was tired after a busy day at work,  thats my excuse!!!

Thanks for posting 

Chris

[Johnson]

Hi Chris,

 

AFAIK it is a perspex fairing over a light bulb and the same as on the Mk.1.

 

So, it's either been painted at the time, it's a light refraction effect or more likely badly colourised.

 

I think on a model it should be clear plastic or painted (silver?) to look like that.

 

Cheers,

[nicholas mayhew]

22 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

The caption in 'Spitfire XVI The Dominions' reflects what I wrote in 2ndTAF Vol 3 when I used the same photo.  I knew the photo was captioned as postwar in the IWM collection but had my doubts; the IWM photo is a copy of an RCAF photo.  I went back to RCAF records and established an approximate date for the photo as late March or early April 1945 - which indicated the base was B.90.

CT

 

Thank you Chris, much appreciated!

[bigbadbadge]

1 hour ago, Johnson said:

Hi Chris,

 

AFAIK it is a perspex fairing over a light bulb and the same as on the Mk.1.

 

So, it's either been painted at the time, it's a light refraction effect or more likely badly colourised.

 

I think on a model it should be clear plastic or painted (silver?) to look like that.

 

Cheers,

Hi Charlie  thanks .  I usually do that but in this instance I will follow the photo as it is my specific Airframe that I am modelling.  I think I saw an thread on here somewhere but am unsure and wondering if I am going mad or not!!! I will see if I can find it. 

Chris

[303sqn]

The photograph has not been colourised. It is one of a series of colour photographs taken at the end of September 1942. The aircraft was photographed in b&w and all show the cover was dark in colour.

 

 

Photographs show a great many Spitfires had dark coloured covers at this time.

 

 

 

The mirror.

 

[HOUSTON]

Sean_M,

Awesome thread  .. it's taken ME coupla  months to get through.

Some really interesting  and inspirational  information. 

Thank you.

[72modeler]

@303sqn,

 

Thanks for posting these great photos! I never noticed the two arms on the rear view mirror before- going to be a real pain in the a-- to duplicate in 1/72 scale! Next to "Widge" Gleed's famous IR-G, this is my favorite Mk VB Spit!

Mike

[bigbadbadge]

3 hours ago, 303sqn said:

The photograph has not been colourised. It is one of a series of colour photographs taken at the end of September 1942. The aircraft was photographed in b&w and all show the cover was dark in colour.

 

 

Photographs show a great many Spitfires had dark coloured covers at this time.

 

 

 

The mirror.

 

Thanks again 303sqn you are a star i am thinking the dark green colour? For the light cover, initially I thought black but it seemed lighter than the black on the tyres in the initial colour image.

Also thank you very much for the pic of the  mirror too. Brilliant. 

Chris

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

I never noticed the two arms on the rear view mirror before- going to be a real pain in the a-- to duplicate in 1/72 scale!

I never toss out the remaining PE frames for exactly this kind of stuff  snip and bend one of the runner strips and René 's your bartender ('Allo 'allo!)

 

[M20gull]

I posed some questions in the cold war forum but I think this might be better as they relate to Spitfires, but post-war in Burma.  I have tried searching and apologies if I have missed the answers as a newbie:

 

I was researching a possible scheme for a Spitfire XVIII as I have two kits and the decals are pretty similar. I came across the Burma connection and then got thoroughly distracted by the other Burma Air Force aircraft.  I ended up with a few issues so grouped them together.

 

XVIII - there is no indication of a colour scheme anywhere. I would presume that they just inherit a day fighter scheme from the SEAC with insignia overpainted. No idea on serials but somewhere in the range UB150 to 299.  I am happy to make one up!

 

Seafire XV - no question as such as there is enough data to come up with an example.  In the Sword kit there is the suggestion that all the Cunliffe Owen airframes had the A frame hook and the Westland ones the tail hook which I have not seen elsewhere.

 

IX - great read on the subject of the movement of these aircraft.  I am not sure of the colour for Burma.  The ex-Czech planes would mostly still be DFS so I think should stay that way with the upper grey overpainted with a brown, but is is Dark Earth? The Carpena sheet shows Sky Blue undersides

 

Any input welcome and I would also appreciate some guidance on how to do the white serials for both the Israeli and Burma planes.  

Edited November 30, 2020 by M20gull

[Graham Boak]

There are a lot of photos around of the Mk.XV with the preferred tail hook.  I don't know about the production split.

 

I would have thought it possible that the ex-Israeli ones had been repainted, but they look unlike the Israeli tan/blue.  However they are quite likely to have retained stocks of RAF Dark Earth.

 

White serials were available from Modeldecal, so check Hannants Xtracolour range which is steadily re-releasing them.  There are other specialist transfer producers, try Fantasy Printshop?  No promises.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, M20gull said:

 

 

Seafire XV - no question as such as there is enough data to come up with an example.  In the Sword kit there is the suggestion that all the Castle Bromwich airframes had the A frame hook and the Westland ones the tail hook which I have not seen elsewhere.

 

 

Castle Bromwich?

 

Seafire XV were built by Westland and Cunliffe Owen. Production in both factories switched from the Mk.III to the Mk.XV at different times. Both lines started producing Seafire XV with A-frame hooks then both introduced the “sting” hook, but again at different times. I did some research a while back based on the photo evidence and found the point of switchover from each line to within a few serial numbers but it is on the PC and I can’t get to it just now. I try to post something tomorrow if you need it.

 

i found that there were a lot more A-frame hooked Seafires than the 50 or so suggested in many sources.

[M20gull]

49 minutes ago, EwenS said:

Castle Bromwich?

 

Seafire XV were built by Westland and Cunliffe Owen. Production in both factories switched from the Mk.III to the Mk.XV at different times. Both lines started producing Seafire XV with A-frame hooks then both introduced the “sting” hook, but again at different times. I did some research a while back based on the photo evidence and found the point of switchover from each line to within a few serial numbers but it is on the PC and I can’t get to it just now. I try to post something tomorrow if you need it.

 

i found that there were a lot more A-frame hooked Seafires than the 50 or so suggested in many sources.

Thanks EwenS. I don’t need anything urgently.  I was mostly intrigued by the comment about the different factories as it did not make sense to me. And sorry for my faulty checking; I did mean Cunliffe Owen, which I have corrected

Edited November 30, 2020 by M20gull

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, M20gull said:

XVIII - there is no indication of a colour scheme anywhere. I would presume that they just inherit a day fighter scheme from the SEAC with insignia overpainted. No idea on serials but somewhere in the range UB150 to 299.  I am happy to make one up!

AFAIK, Burma did not have Spitfire XVIII/18's.  

Only Ex Israeli Spitfire IX, Seafire XV, 

Possibly a mis reading of the myth that the Seafire XV were refitted with Spitfire 18 wings, which they weren't 

   

7 hours ago, M20gull said:

IX - great read on the subject of the movement of these aircraft.  I am not sure of the colour for Burma.  The ex-Czech planes would mostly still be DFS so I think should stay that way with the upper grey overpainted with a brown, but is is Dark Earth? The Carpena sheet shows Sky Blue undersides

The Ex Israeli planes were all overhauled and completely repainted before export. 

I don't know if there is adefinite answer on the colours,  there maybe something in Spitfire IX in Israeli service,  but I'm not goin to dig that out at the mo...

 Decals have appeared as AM, and in this set

https://www.eduard.com/eduard/plastic-kits/limited-edition/aircraft/1-72/nasi-se-vraceji-1-72.html

 

discontinued, but given the multitude of options on the sheet,  they are out there is spares land.   The instructions pdf is in the link, might be worth seeing what Eduard call out for the Burma colours.    The set was done in 1/48th as well.

@Mark12 may know more, but he's not been on here for a while.

7 hours ago, M20gull said:

 

Any input welcome and I would also appreciate some guidance on how to do the white serials for both the Israeli and Burma planes.

various sheet have done Israeli markings.   If you want to do a Israeli and Burma plane, you may want too look out for the above set. 

 

I'll try to dig out the Israeli Spitfire book a well.

 

HTH

[M20gull]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

AFAIK, Burma did not have Spitfire XVIII/18's.  

 

HTH

Troy, thank you for the detailed answer.  I will definitely look at the Eduard material. 
 

On the spitfire database there are three XVIIIs exported to Burma in 1948: 

NH853 EA 39MU 8-7-45 76MU 18-2-46 Tarantia 8-3-46 India 30-3-46 ACSEA 11-4-46 BurmaAF 22-4-48 

SM943 EA 33MU 23-7-45 76MU 31-1-46 Tarantia 8-3-46 India 30-3-46 ACSEA 11-4-46 60S 'B' wheels up landing Tengah Singapore 24-12-47 Burma 22-4-48 

TP198 KEA 39MU 17-12-45 76MU 28-1-46 Pentarkete 12-2-46 India 17-3-46 ACSEA 28-3-46 BurmaAF 22-4-48

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by M20gull

[M20gull]

The Eduard instructions show Dark Green, Dark Earth over Light Blue for the Burmese IX. It had not occurred to me that they would have been painted before transfer.

Edited December 1, 2020 by M20gull

[Max Headroom]

4 hours ago, M20gull said:

The Eduard instructions show Dark Green, Dark Earth over Light Blue for the Burmese IX. It had not occurred to me that they would have been painted before transfer.

“Somewhere” I have an Air Enthusiast which had a two parter on Israel’s sale of Spitfires to Burma. On the cover is an overhead shot of a Spitfire 9 indoors in a Burmese museum. For what it’s worth, the Spitfires in there had more of a chocolate brown colour rather than Dark Earth, but then again, the way they had been ‘restored’ and mis identified for exhibition makes me doubt that the scheme was authentic. The article was I think by our very own @Mark12

 

Trevor

[M20gull]

48 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

“Somewhere” I have an Air Enthusiast which had a two parter on Israel’s sale of Spitfires to Burma. On the cover is an overhead shot of a Spitfire 9 indoors in a Burmese museum. For what it’s worth, the Spitfires in there had more of a chocolate brown colour rather than Dark Earth, but then again, the way they had been ‘restored’ and mis identified for exhibition makes me doubt that the scheme was authentic. The article was I think by our very own @Mark12

 

Trevor

Presumably this one: Ebay link .  It is not much like Dark Earth!  

[Max Headroom]

36 minutes ago, M20gull said:

Presumably this one: Ebay link .  It is not much like Dark Earth!  

That’s the one! (green looks off too)

 

Be wary of a restored example - just look at the RAFM Hudson
 

Trevor

[Seahawk]

20 hours ago, M20gull said:

XVIII - there is no indication of a colour scheme anywhere. I would presume that they just inherit a day fighter scheme from the SEAC with insignia overpainted. No idea on serials but somewhere in the range UB150 to 299.  I am happy to make one up!

 

It's possible the 3 Spitfire XVIIIs never received Burmese serials: certainly Air Britain's Spitfire International does not record any for them (it does for most of the other Burmese Seafires and Spitfires).  Here what Spitfire International has to say about them: "Three Spitfire F.XVIIIe from ACSEA (Air Command South East Asia) stocks arrived in Burma during April 1948 for strafing actions against the Communist North.  They were incorporated into a training programme for Burmese pilots, supported by the British Forces Mission at Mingaladon, near Rangoon.  Later a Burmese Conversion Squadron was formed at Llandow in the UK, flying Spitfire F.21s in 1952/3.  ...."

[EwenS]

19 hours ago, M20gull said:

Thanks EwenS. I don’t need anything urgently.  I was mostly intrigued by the comment about the different factories as it did not make sense to me. And sorry for my faulty checking; I did mean Cunliffe Owen, which I have corrected

The contractual arrangements were such that Westland was given responsibility for development of the Seafire from the MkIIc onwards. Cunliffe-Owen then co-ordinated production with Westland as a sub-contractor (David Brown "The Seafire. The Spitfire that went to sea". Contract details here.

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_Westland.html

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_COA.html

 

With regard to the sting hook stories vary. One version (Thetford's "British Naval Aircraft" for example) reports the sting hook as fitted from the 51st Seafire XV airfame completed. That was before Cunliffe-Owen started building any which probably explains what you read. Other stories (David Brown's "The Seafire" and Kev Darling's "Supermarine Seafire" for example) say the first 384 completed had the A frame hook. Except that was the total production run of the Mark XV and is clearly wrong from the photo evidence.

 

There were 6 prototype Seafire XV, Of these NS487 and NS490 flew initially with the A frame and then later with the sting hook. PK245 also had a sting hook.

 

The first Westland Mark XV production airframe was SR446 completed 31 August 1944 followed by another 8 airframes in 1944. Production was initially slow due to problems getting the Mrk XV cleared by the A&AEE. It then ramped up in 1945 through to the end of the war. But this was in parallel with the wind-down of Seafire III production of which ended in July 1945. Mark XV production ceased in Oct 1945. Mark XVII production began in April 1945.

 

I've positively identified the hook on 22 out of the 250 Westland Mk.XV and looked at a lot of other photos where either serials or hooks are not visible. That is 7 A frame and 15 sting. As far as I can tell the changeover from A frame to sting hook occurred in April 1945 in the batch SR516-547 produced between April & July 1945. SR520, produced in April, was an A frame and SR537, produced the same month, had a sting hook. I've seen artwork, not a photo, suggesting SR530, again an April aircraft, was an A frame (but how reliable that is who knows). The next serial batch was SR568-611 produced from April to July. The first aircraft I have found in this batch was SR572, produced May 1945, with a sting hook. I've not found any A frames beyond that point in that batch or in subsequent batches.

 

So that suggests somewhere between 53 and 70 aircraft from Westland had A frames from the 250 produced.

 

As all the Mark XVII had the sting hook, and that Mark was produced by Westland from April, it seems to reinforce the idea that the sting hook entered production in April 1945.

 

Turning to Cunliffe-Owen, their first Seafire XV, PR338, came off the production line in March 1945 and again initial production was in parallel with the last Seafire III, the last of which left their production line in July 1945. Mark XV production continued until Jan 1946. The production run was cancelled after 134 of the 150 contracted aircraft had been produced. I've positively identified the hook on 20 of those aircraft (11 A frame and 9 sting). The changeover here seems to have taken place in Oct 1945 in the third serial batch PR449-479. This time however I think I can identify exactly when it occurred. PR458 & PR460 were A frames and I can't find a sting hook prior to that. PR461 and PR470 were both sting hooks and I haven't identified an A frame after that point. Quite a number of the Cunliffe-Owen aircraft ended up with the RCN and a lot of photos of them exist which has helped.

 

Cunliffe-Owen began Mark XVII production in Dec 1945 but only produced 20 before production ceased in March 1946.

 

The other Seafire XV mystery is the story of the "last 30" Westland built aircraft being built with the low back and the bubble canopy. That would suggest that the changeover here happened in Aug 1945 at a time when Westland had already begun to build the Mark XVII. I've not seen any photos to verify that. However it was not as simple as the "last 30" aircraft being the last 30 serials issued. That is because SW916, the sixth last Westland Mark XV serial, was a high back.  I do wonder however if it all comes down to the availibilty of the two types of fuselage i.e. they had stopped building high backs and still had Mark XV orders to fulfill.

 

If anyone can add anything I'd love to hear anything that contributes further.

 

 

[gingerbob]

A "shoot from the hip" answer: I think that the Westland XV/XVII confusion is due to incorporation of improvements (planning thereof) and new designations running somewhat independently of each other.  My theory is that a number of planned improvements were rolled into the change in fuselage/enclosure, so that they ended up being XVIIs.  I've done some analysis of all this, but it has been a while, and documentation (that I saw) was fairly sketchy.

[derekS]

Hi,

On13 April,72modeler posted a "spitfire photo collection"on the "Resources"forum.

Check out 601 Sqn ,photo titled "Malta Patrol"(4 up from the bottom).

Spitfires seem to be desert scheme oversprayed blue/grey.Very strange serials though!

Any thoughts?

Cheers,derek

[Graham Boak]

Looks like a fake - see the serials.  Fuller comment after your posting on the other thread, which directs interest to Asisbiz's Spitfire photo collection  (That was supposed to be the link not the name, but it did the same thing twice.)

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

I will be starting a build very shortly of K9906 FZ*L with 65 Squadron in 1939. Does anyone know of any particulars for this airframe. Anything that should be added changed or modified on the 1/48 Airfix Mk.1 ? I know the plane has a 3 blade prop but the kit comes with two ? The blunt spinner is correct and what about the landing gear ? Doesn't the early Spitfire use a hand pump ? 
 

Dennis

Edited December 29, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle