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Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here


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26 minutes ago, Grissom said:

So, with a specific airframe identified, I'd like to know if this aircraft had an IFF Remote Contactor device on the right side of the cockpit, or some other type of IFF device.   Secondly, I can't work out if this airframe had a radio aerial extending from the dorsal antenna post to the rudder. 

@Peter Roberts has given you the link. Based on Peter Malone's advice and studying the images you will find in the post. I decided on IFF wires yes, normal IFF remote contactor and no wire dorsal mast to tail.

 

Spitfire_A58-84_Final_4A

 

Ray

 

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I can't add anything to what @Peter Roberts and @Ray_W have said. The IFF antenna wires are apparent in a couple of the photos I posted in Ray,'s thread. An antenna wire was normally not fitted from mast to rudder, although a couple of RAAF Spits had it for escort duties.

Peter M

Edited by Magpie22
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Thanks for responding, Pete.   I saw Ray_W's build (which is lovely) and I see that he included a Remote Contactor in his cockpit.   I also note that he didn't fit a 'dorsal' antenna.   Unless I get some definitive evidence, I guess I'll run along the same path Ray did (if he doesn't mind :) ).

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Wow, talk about speedy service!   Thanks Pete (Magpie 22) and Ray_W.   I cannot thank you all, enough.   Such an awesome site and such awesome, helpful people.

 

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@GrissomYour safe.

 

In this image of your subject there is definitely no dorsal antenna wire. 

 

Can we spot the IFF? More difficult. Ignore the scratch. If the wire is there it would be going from the painted over insulator at 2 o'clock centre in the white roundel.  You can just see it. 

 

Spitfire_A58-84_Construction_109

 

But if you really want to see the presence of IFF wires on a RAAF Mk Vc, look here:

 

Spitfire_A58-84_Construction_110

 

I saw no reason to change the IFF remote contactor. No evidence either way. 

 

It was a very enjoyable build for the research and the conversion.  

 

Ray

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Early Spitfire Undercarriage Lever and Voltage Regulator

 

Looking at the pictures etc of the new Eduard 1/48 Spitfire 1a, I was wondering if anyone had decent information on when the undercart lever changed from the manual pump to the hydraulic system.  It is often quoted as around the 175th airframe, but that is still in the early K series I think.  Interesting the P9374 and N3200 rebuild/ replicas have the manual handle, which would suggest that the manual handle was later than the K series.  

 

Also the voltage regulator was in a lower position in early airframes and then moved to a intermediate position later on.  The Scale Models Nov 82 piece on the Spitfire 38-40 states that the regulator had a low seat position for N3023  through to N3110 and then to the final high set position.   Again does anyone have any info or pictures of these two early regulator positions please, i.e the initial and intermediate positions?

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I had heard of it, and read about it. Good to see it given a proper tribute :) 

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6 hours ago, alt-92 said:

I had heard of it, and read about it.

Hopefully they didn't use the Hasegawa kit as their reference! Looks like a supersized Attack Squadron Rotol prop and spinner! Bet it took a drum of Milliput to fill all the seams! :giggle:

Mike

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R6691PRJ

 

A marvellous photo of Flt Lt F J Howell in his Spitfire PR-J, R6691, 609 Sqn. I'm modelling the plane in the BoB GB using the Airfix 1/24 Mk.1

 

But what's puzzling me is the gun sight in the photo. Mk.1 Spitfires in 1940 had a circular glass reflector screen, or so I thought. But the glass in the photo looks square, or is it something else in there?

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks

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Looking through the book  ‘Spitfire’ (Roy Cross and Gerald Scarborough) I found the answer in a  very comprehensive cockpit layout diagram.

 

It’s the ‘Dimming Screen’ for the GM2 Reflector Gunsight in the up position.

 

Learn something new everyday!

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Hi all,

  I'm wanting to build a MK.21, obviously I know the old Aeroclub conversion is around but it's not the most cost effective thing to buy when they do appear. I do however have the Seafire conversion which requires a Mk.9 kit - I have the said Mk.9 fuselage spare from this conversion (Aeroclub + Hasegawa) and was wondering if I could purchase an Airfix 22/24 and simply replace the cockpit section and rear fuselage with that of the Mk.9 and a spare Mk.14 rudder to get a 21?

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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For the fuselage, I don't see why not, but methinks the 21 could have had the older smaller tailplane to go with the earlier fin and rudder?  And a  Mk.XIV rudder or a Mk.XVIII?  I have seen it said that the Mk.21 had the smaller prop from the Mk.XIV but have some doubts about that.  These are three queries rather than statements of fact.

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@Graham Boak

Thanks for your reply. I think it's actually an XVIII rudder that I have spare - it's whatever came with the new Airfix 1/48 kit :)

 

I'll have to compare the XIV and 22/24 props to see if the difference is noticeable enough in 1/48 before I muck about re-profiling prop blades :)

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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These are the rudders I have available for the conversion;

 

Hasegawa IX rudders on the left, Airfix XVIII bottom right and the spare from the Aeroclub Seafire conversion top right, although I have absoloutlely no clue what mark it's actually for;

 

IMG_20200814_162923

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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Hiya, from memory, I think for a Mk 21 the airframe is based on the MkVIII through to Mk XIV (high back) and Mk XIX airframe lineage. The Mk 21 used two types of rudder/fin arrangements; the standard Mk XIV/XIX config and the later Mk XVIII type (roughly). The larger Mk XVIII fin/rudder was used when the Mk 21 was fitted with 6 bladed a contra-prop, and the standard Mk XIV/XIX fin/rudder when fitted with a 5 bladed prop (which I think was a little larger than the one used on the Mk XIX).  I attempted a Mk 21 a couple of years ago, with a bit more in-depth research; here's a link to my build... 

 

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2 minutes ago, WV908 said:

@CplPunishment

 

Thanks :) Looks like I'll be re-profiling the XVIII rudder Into an XIV one then :)

 

Cheers,

  WV908

... and the vertical fin, which is neither MkVIII/IX nor Mk 22/24 in shape. Here's another post with a useful diag of the fin/rudder shapes...   Good luck!

 

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23 hours ago, WV908 said:

and was wondering if I could purchase an Airfix 22/24 and simply replace the cockpit section and rear fuselage with that of the Mk.9 and a spare Mk.14 rudder to get a 21?

If you like hard work.

 

Easier to replace or modify the 22/24 spine, and cut down the fin.    And if it goes wrong, look at a replacement fuselage.  

I have a part done low to high back using the Airfix 22/24,  I actually got some small round prong pliers, and bent/rolled the existing fuselage up, (people seem to forget that plastic, is erm, plastic)  creating a triangular gap,  which you can fill with plastic card.

The fin has enough meat to be cut back and thinned.

I stalled at re-doing the cockpit. 

 

There is no simple and accurate way to this unless you have a Aeroclub fuselage. 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, WV908 said:

Hasegawa IX rudders on the left, Airfix XVIII bottom right and the spare from the Aeroclub Seafire conversion top right, although I have absoloutlely no clue what mark it's actually for;

 

IMG_20200814_162923

 

 

weird fact. Despite appearances, the broad chord VIII rudder, lower left,  has the same rear section as the XIV/XIX rudder, they vary in the horn balance.  

Note in the linked thread, the XIV fin has a 2 inch wood block on the top.  

  

On 31/07/2013 at 18:23, John Aero said:

Spitfire14and18comparison.jpg

The FR.18 and late FR.14e fin and rudder were identical to those of the F.21 fitted with the contra props. The FR.18 drawing in the SAM Datafile shows the classic mistake of sticking an enlarged rudder on the standard Mk.14 fin. It even shows the panel line denoting the wooden block fin tip which is'nt there on the Mk.18.

Note I don't use the Roman numerals for clarity.

John

 

On 01/08/2013 at 16:35, John Aero said:

If the rudder simply replaces the Academy rudder and the horn balance is not a scale 16" then it's wrong. On a good scale Mk.14 the fin needs to have a scale 2.5" removed from the top of the fin to fit a correct 18 broad chord rudder. The white area on my photo (which is of a large rudder FR 14e (18 type)) is the wooden fin tip of the Mk.14 which is removable. The horn balance of the 18 rudder is deeper. Too many drawings show an uncorrected Mk.14 fin with a taller/broader rudder perched on it.

The rudder post height of all previous Mks remained standard but the Mk.14 required that the fin be given more area this was achieved by extending the fin with a new metal leading edge and making it higher by fitting a shaped wooden fin cap. An entirely new rudder was fitted. Later more rudder area was required and an even broader rudder was fitted which in turn required a bigger horn balance. The simplest way was to remove the wooden fin extension to allow a deeper horn to be accomodated. These big rudders all have a Z section trim tab. The blue outline is a 14 the red an 18. The panel is a 12" square for scale.

John

 

I don't think you can cut back the XVIII rudder.  You can modify the VIII rudder with a new horn balance.

 

Personally, I'd ask for a spare Airifx XIV rudder, the kit has both types, someone will have a spare, and it will go as a standard letter

 

The spare Aeroclub rudder is the a Seafire XV with large rudder tab, the other type fitted is the broad type with a stinger arrest hook.

 

HTH

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@CplPunishment

 

@Troy Smith

 

Thanks for the input on the rudders :) I'm looking at picking up another Airfix 14 to do as an 18, so I'll either nick the spare 14 rudder from that or use the broad chord VIII rudder :)

Cheers,

  WV908

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It's has probably been already discussed but can you tell when two-level rudder pedals were introduced? A.Price said in his two books that they were used during the BoB.  It that correct?

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I'd also like to know as the 1/24 Airfix Mk 1 has the two-level rudder pedals which I think may be wrong.

 

A look through Morgan and Shacklady's 'Spitfire - The History' didn't tell me.

 

A quick Google search brought up this;

https://spitfireparts.co.uk/products/spitfire-rudder-pedals-twin-step

This style was fitted to all MK's of Spitfire except the MKI.

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15 hours ago, DominikS said:

It's has probably been already discussed but can you tell when two-level rudder pedals were introduced? A.Price said in his two books that they were used during the BoB.  It that correct?

I was sure I had info on this; I recall Edgar as one who has provided details, but cannot now find it.

 

In his book "Spitfire Pilots Stories", Price refers to Stanford-Tuck undertaking a flight in a Spitfire with two-step rudder pedals and then answering a questionnaire on his experiences, designed to help pilots pull higher G's in a turn. He asserts that this happened pre-Battle of Britain and that as a result, new Spitfires were built with these new pedals and existing aircraft retrofitted in time for the Battle. Unfortunately no time line here.

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17 hours ago, DominikS said:

It's has probably been already discussed but can you tell when two-level rudder pedals were introduced? A.Price said in his two books that they were used during the BoB.  It that correct?

 

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

I was sure I had info on this; I recall Edgar as one who has provided details, but cannot now find it.

 

In his book "Spitfire Pilots Stories", Price refers to Stanford-Tuck undertaking a flight in a Spitfire with two-step rudder pedals and then answering a questionnaire on his experiences, designed to help pilots pull higher G's in a turn. He asserts that this happened pre-Battle of Britain and that as a result, new Spitfires were built with these new pedals and existing aircraft retrofitted in time for the Battle. Unfortunately no time line here.

bear in mind, fitting new pedals is not going to be a lot of work, especially if makes a combat difference! 

 

Sorry, not finding the Edgar post eitehr...oh, here we go

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22754-spitfire-i-2-blade-prop-markings-question/&do=findComment&comment=249168

  

On 05/11/2008 at 21:36, Edgar said:

And more (sorry;) the rudder pedals only had a single bar, with the leather toestraps. The second bar wasn't introduced until July, 1940

 

 

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