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Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here


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2 minutes ago, fastterry said:

After the early models they removed the underwing landing lights as being superfluous.

The picture in my previous post is a war time RAAF MkVIII photograph. They seem painted over or blanked off.

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Just to clarify, the landing lights on the Spit (up to Mk V & VI) folded down for operation and fitted flush when retracted and were covered so they are actually hard to see in photos. They are in front of and slightly outside of the cannon bulges on the Mk V. Different animal from the lights on the Mk VIII. Possibly the Mk VIII lamps were for signalling and were deemed unnecessary by the RAAF and they painted/covered them over. Hopefully some our more knowledgeable Spit people will come along and rescue us.

TRF

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3 minutes ago, fastterry said:

knowledgeable Spit people will come along and rescue us

Hope so.

 

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The lamps have been discussed before:

 

spacer.png'

From the Spitfire Site: Internal structure of the Type C wing as fitted to the Spitfire Mk. VIII.
The leading edge fuel tank was peculiar to this mark and was not mounted on Spitfires Mk. V and  IX.
Interestingly, both this and the subsequent drawing (produced by Supermarine) of the Mk. VII show the downward identification lamp. However, this item was deleted in the Mk. VII & VIII production, by modification No. 746 issued on 1 May 1943. (note though reintroduction in the thread referenced above)

Edited by Biggles81
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@Biggles81

 

Thanks for the quick response. There are a number of threads which usually then drift towards the positioning of the central Amber light. So I would assume the use of the term "Identification Light" would mean the colours of the day could be set with a traffic light system for all three downward lights. This being the intent.

 

Main question is how it pertains to RAAF Mk VIII which seem not to have used this system either painted over or blanked off.

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Right one last shot at this one. The wing you show above is from A58-315 (JF934) which was issued to an MU in England 25.8.43, delivered to RAAF Oct 43. According to Edgar mod 989 (I.D. lamps) was introduced to Mk VIII production from 7.12.44. RAAF Mk VIII's from A58-315 to A58-701 were built before that date so most likely operational RAAF Mk VIII's didn't have the lights. Of the last batch of Mk VIII's delivered to Oz (A58-600-758) serials 600 to 701 shouldn't have had the lights, serials 702 on should have the lights but they all went straight to storage and never flew operations. The Temora Mk VIII is the last one delivered to Oz as A58-758 (MV239) and has the lights as I mentioned previously. This information gleaned from above post on I.D. lights (Edgar), Stewart Wilson (Spitfire, Mustang & Kittyhawk in Aust service) and Morgan & Shacklady (Spitfire - The History). Phew!

TRF

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On 4/12/2020 at 6:06 PM, Magpie22 said:

Installation in Spitfire VIII.

@Magpie22

 

Peter, you were so kind as to share the image of the Mk VIII cockpit starboard side from the pilot's notes clarifying the IFF installation. Can you share the port side? Now I'm trying to track down the voltage regulator relocation from the back of the pilot's head armour. Also seems like a few other changes. Thanks in advance, Ray

 

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15 hours ago, Ray_W said:

@Magpie22

 

Peter, you were so kind as to share the image of the Mk VIII cockpit starboard side from the pilot's notes clarifying the IFF installation. Can you share the port side? Now I'm trying to track down the voltage regulator relocation from the back of the pilot's head armour. Also seems like a few other changes. Thanks in advance, Ray

 

Ray,

Shots of inst panel and port side of cockpit attached for the record. You won't find the voltage regulator in the cockpit. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure wher it was located. I will see what I can find. 

@gingerbob

@Graham Boak

may know.

 

Peter M

 

ea9a0599-f40d-4a03-a32e-91eb545ac94a.jpg

 

0a12b412-85da-407a-a54d-1d1f126476b0.jpg

Edited by Magpie22
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1 hour ago, Magpie22 said:

Shots of inst panel and port side of cockpit attached for the record. You won't find the voltage regulator in the cockpit. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure wher it was located. I will see what I can find. 

Thanks Peter,

 

There is an excellent 1/32 MkVIII build underway on LSP https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/84162-tamiya-132-spitfire-mkviii/page/2/ where the comment is made that the voltage regulator was low on the port side below the entry door. Possibly not visible in the Pilot's notes. Please check if you attached the image. Sorry for being a pest.

 

Thanks as always,
Ray

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Looking up codes for Mk.IXc’s and comparing them yo images and decals that I have. I found ML214 a Mk. IXc. It was Coded 5J*K and was listed as being 126Sq. The pilot is Yiannis “John” Plagis. Is this an early/late Mk.IX ? I went to this website and found the plane serial #, it was listed in there but I cant tell from that if its an early or late production airframe ? 


http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

 

The profile looks like late IXc but the photo is cockpit with pilot only. 

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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After you post above about the voltage regulator I thought there's another thing about Spitfires I don't really know the answer to, and so back to the reference books. I looked in the SAM books, nothing, but I just happen to have the pilot's notes on the Mk XIV & XIX and there is a device mounted on the bulkhead behind the pilot low down on the port side of the cockpit that looks suspiciously like a voltage regulator. It's not marked in the notes presumably because you don't have to touch it to fly the aeroplane. The device is quite clear to see as the seat is removed in the illustration. Can't post pictures but maybe somebody else will oblige.

TRF 

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Hi Dennis, While I was at my books on another matter I looked up ML214. She was manufactured and delivered to 6 MU 25/4/44 as an LF.IX with Merlin 66 so was a lateish IX with C wing with narrow cannon blisters & standard rudder but with the long Aero Vee carburettor air intake. HTH

TRF

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I cant tell from that if its an early or late production airframe ? 

ML124 LFIX CBAF M66 46MU 27-3-44

So a low/medium alt. tuned M66, delivery date march 1944. 
From comparison with earlier blocks such as MJ255 (delivered 10-1943, went to 412 Sqn RCAF) that already have the Aerovee & narrow cannon blisters I'd say late.

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@Magpie22@fastterry

 

Thanks Peter for including the Mk VIII port side cockpit image which shows significant change to the Mk IX. The area under the throttle and elevator trim wheel now has a new control box added with a number of switches now located, I suggest, all together and more convenient for the pilot. Also I think the guys at LSP got it right. Just peaking out from the corner of the pilot seat is where they have placed the Voltage Regulator. See the following image.

 

Voltage regulator location

 

I'll hunt down some cockpit photos of the Temora Mk VIII and see what's on the port side.

 

This walkaround has the port side wall heavily modified. I'll keep hunting.

 

 

 

Ray

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, fastterry said:

Right one last shot at this one. The wing you show above is from A58-315 (JF934) which was issued to an MU in England 25.8.43, delivered to RAAF Oct 43. According to Edgar mod 989 (I.D. lamps) was introduced to Mk VIII production from 7.12.44. RAAF Mk VIII's from A58-315 to A58-701 were built before that date so most likely operational RAAF Mk VIII's didn't have the lights. Of the last batch of Mk VIII's delivered to Oz (A58-600-758) serials 600 to 701 shouldn't have had the lights, serials 702 on should have the lights but they all went straight to storage and never flew operations. The Temora Mk VIII is the last one delivered to Oz as A58-758 (MV239) and has the lights as I mentioned previously. This information gleaned from above post on I.D. lights (Edgar), Stewart Wilson (Spitfire, Mustang & Kittyhawk in Aust service) and Morgan & Shacklady (Spitfire - The History). Phew!

TRF

 

All RAAF Spitfire Mk.VIII aircraft had downward identification lamps. There were two types fitted.

 

1.      The initial type was a result of Mod 746 promulgated in October 1942. It was single unit fitted flush with the under surface of the starboard wing. Its position is shown in the drawing posted by Biggles 81 in post #1279. In photos, it can be seen, just outboard of the roundel. It consisted of a clear lamp, beneath which was a rotatable disc containing red, green and amber transparencies. It was controlled by a unit on the starboard side of the cockpit, (item 58 in my post #1256), consisting of a switch, a morse key, and  a colour selector. The pilot selected the colour of the day and used the morse key to send the letter(s) of the day to identify himself as friendly.

 

Not many RAAF aircraft carried this type of downward identification lamp. It was fitted to JF serialled aircraft and JG serialled aircraft up to at least JG174, this latter first flying in mid-September 1943. A58-315, (JF934), below, is an example. The lens for the unit can be seen just outboard of the roundel. It has not been painted over – its dull appearance may just be due to the filters behind it absorbing, rather than reflecting light.

 

98ba5dce-4616-4aea-ae7f-02cfebb07dcd.jpg

 

2.      The second type was introduced as a result of Mod 989, promulgated in May 1943. Three individual lamps were introduced: a green one in the starboard wing in the same position as the original unit, a red one in the port wing in the same position, and an amber one under the rear fuselage. The principle of operation was the same as for the initial unit, selecting colour and morsing the code letter.

The first RAAF aircraft that I can verify fitted with this set up is JG350, (A58-393), first flown in October 1943. All subsequent JG serialled and all MB, MD, PA, MT and MV aircraft had this arrangement. Note there was normally a gap from an instruction being promulgated until it was incorporated in production aircraft. Drawings had to be prepared, checked, issued to the subcontractor, the part manufactured and, finally, fitted to aircraft on the production line.

 

Temora’s VH-HET, A58-758, MV239, clearly displays this set up.

 

4b1679d1-b23c-42a1-98fb-ba2b7848cb4d.jpg

 

Fasttery, in post #1275, voices some scepticism that Spitfires were flown at night. As well as regular night patrols in northern Australia, they also flew at night from Morotai, Labuan and Tarakan. F/O Jack Pretty, F/L George Scrimgeour, F/L John Campbell, and F/O Jack King were all involved in night kills. Those ops are covered in my book “Aussie Eight”, released by Eduard.  

 

Peter M                                                                                                             

Edited by Magpie22
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6 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

All RAAF Spitfire Mk.VIII aircraft had downward identification lamps. There were two types fitted.

Thank you Peter for the long clarification. 

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The problem of dating spitfire mods has come up before.  I think that Gingerbob will back me in saying that the service introduction of mods appears to predate those quoted in Supermarine's catalogue of such things, as used by Edgar.  It appears that here we  have another case.  I have not seen any convincing suggestion of what was intended by the date used by Supermarine.

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Note also in the photo posted by Magpie22 that the centre line amber light has been relocated to the rear of the aircraft versus the usual position on earlier a/c.

 

 

Edited by Peter Roberts
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2 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

1.      The initial type was a result of Mod 746 promulgated in October 1942. ... Not many RAAF aircraft carried this type of downward identification lamp. It was fitted to JF serialled aircraft and JG serialled aircraft up to at least JG174, this latter first flying in mid-September 1943.

 

2.      The second type was introduced as a result of Mod 989, promulgated in May 1943.

 

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The problem of dating spitfire mods has come up before.  I think that Gingerbob will back me in saying that the service introduction of mods appears to predate those quoted in Supermarine's catalogue of such things, as used by Edgar.  It appears that here we  have another case.  I have not seen any convincing suggestion of what was intended by the date used by Supermarine.

 

Well, let's have a look:

Alteration [so says the ledger] 746 (Mks VII,VIII) Class 4B "To delete red and green downward recognition lights on wings" LTC Min 869 6/10/42.  Drgs. & PMS issued. Cleared 1/5/43 Included in Mk.VII&VIII DIS.  [DIS is, if I remember right, "Drawing Information Sheet"- essentially, the list of Supermarine drawings you need to refer to in order to build a particular version.  I think the RAF Museum has at least some of these.]

 

Modification 989 (Mks VIII & XIV) Class 4B "To introduce two additional downward identification lights (red & green)" LTC Min 1194 18/5/43. Cleared 7/12/44

     The preceding two mods have the same title for other variants:

Mod 987 (Mks V,IX,& XII) LTC Min 1192 (also Seafire Mod 188) "Cancelled LTC 1887 [I think] 9/1/45

Mod 988 (Mk VII) LTC Min 1193 Cleared 15/11/44

Sea Mod 188 [this one's a bit fuzzier] (IB, IIC, III, L III, [something] Hooked Spitfire, [something] LTC N/1172 [all these are 18/5/43] N/1647 [I think] some date '44

 

The "LTC" date I interpret as when it was first brought up at the "Local Technical Committee" meeting, which was a quite regular event; these dates appear to flow in keeping with the minute numbers.  Now, that could happen (along with issue of a Mod number) long before the mod might actually start getting done- and as 987 reveals, sometimes they decided not to follow through for whatever reason.  As for interpreting the subsequent dates, of which the ledger presents a variety, I'm on very shaky ground.  As I recall it was these dates that Edgar would sometimes throw into a discussion giving (in my opinion) an unreliable chronological waypoint.

 

Hope this little exercise was interesting to some, though I know it'll make most people's eyes glaze over.

bob

 

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Thanks for spelling that out, Bob. I didn't want to further cloud my post by going into that detail. It crosses the 't's and dots the 'i's. Hopefully we won't have to spell it all out again. This topic has come up so many times.

Cheers,

Peter M

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1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

Hope this little exercise was interesting to some, though I know it'll make most people's eyes glaze over.

 

41 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

Thanks for spelling that out, Bob. I didn't want to further cloud my post by going into that detail. It crosses the 't's and dots the 'i's. Hopefully we won't have to spell it all out again. This topic has come up so many times.

 

Thanks Bob and Peter for the detailed explanation. I will now have to build more VIII's to put the knowledge into play (and still get it wrong). I always try to reflect the great knowledge you guys have. The current one, my first VIII, has been very interesting. The build is just underway and already proving a lot of fun. Nothing boring about Spitfires. Cockpit Starboard side with your input 30% done.  Thanks again Ray.

 

 

Spitfire_VIII_Construction_18

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Ray_W said:

Cockpit Starboard side with your input 30% done.

I do hope that undercart position selector is in the 'down' position! Looking very, very good so far!

Mike

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3 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I do hope that undercart position selector is in the 'down' position! Looking very, very good so far!

Mike

Sure is.  Just a start for the current STGB.

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Magpie 22, Thank you for clearing up those flippin lights. I had another look through all the photos I could find and they are really hard to see. I have the Eduard 1/48 Aussie Eights kit set and didn't look in there until today because it was under a pile of other kits and was hard to get out. I commend you on a fantastic book on the RAAF VIII's but even in there it was hard to see the lights however I did notice they were on the profile artworks. Thanks again.

TRF

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Hey everyone... Stupid question but needs to be asked. Mk.IX MK716 Red X picture #1 in this thread. 
 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/spitfire-fr-ix-iff-radios-carried.16552/#lg=post-446663&slide=1

 

Does it have standard roundels, or were the colors subdued at all. Im just curious because the photo is hard to interpret. 

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