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Sean_M

Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

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I have a question about the angle of the wheels. In building the new Airfix mki, the wheels seem to be splayed rather a lot which is almost certainly just my mistake modelling but are they supposed to be splayed at all? I have been looking through all the books I have but can't find any pictures that are really square on (apart from a K5054 photo) that would answer this.

DSC_0176.jpg

Hi Mark,

If your kits instructions are similar to the ones found in the fairly recent Airfix 1/48 scale Spitfire Mk.Vb kit, they should have a couple of diagrams that show the geometry of the undercarriage legs from two different perspectives.

To give you an idea of what the geometry roughly looks like, I've also included a couple of cropped pictures of the Temora Aviation Museum's Spitfire HFVIII; MV239, A58-758, VH-HET.

16724358390_8190fb15f3_o.jpg

Daniel Cox/Studiocox

16910856311_6484bf3d3d_o.jpg

Daniel Cox/Studiocox

Cheers,

Daniel.

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optical illusion, sadly, often caused by focal-plane shutters, since the propeller is in multiple positions as the shutter travels across the film. Even the human eye can be fooled, with an engine appearing to run backwards as it slows down. This is MB882 with its engine stopped:-

MB882_zpsu5wpfp1h.jpg

Well I certainly am glad that I made the comment and it was duly challenged. I shall note the facts and model accordingly.

Thank you for the info, as ever I am amazed at the knowledge here.

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I have a question about the angle of the wheels. In building the new Airfix mki, the wheels seem to be splayed rather a lot which is almost certainly just my mistake modelling but are they supposed to be splayed at all? I have been looking through all the books I have but can't find any pictures that are really square on (apart from a K5054 photo) that would answer this.

DSC_0176.jpg

HI Mark

this looks very off, have you installed the upper bits C30 and C31 the wrong wing, I say this as the way the joint is, if you installed these parts in the opposing wing it could cause the twist visible in the pic?

Sorry, my VB is not in the box, and it's 'misfiled' to allow a better check, but looking at the instructions it looks like you could ....this irked me enough that I finally found parts sprues in a Mosquito box....and, well, I can't dry fit the bits :( It's too late and fiddly to do with blue tack

A photo of the above and behind would help. A bit more head scratching and looking at bits,

Ah, you may have got the gear legs the wrong way round, I've checked it, and it's easy enough to do and with the angled tops doing that would cause this.......

if this is glued all you can do is drill into the tops, to pin them, and the cut them off and attach later. Given the weak nature of this joint anyway, this has been suggested as a way to make this stronger...

HTH

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Hi Mark and Troy,

I just had a go at this myself on my Mk.Vb kit, with blu-tac holding holding the spar piece C17, the lower wing E1and part C30 while holding either the correct strut part C53, or the wrong strut by hand and I can't replicate what has occurred.

I also tried fitting C30 the wrong way around yet it doesn't clear the wheel well opening so it won't fit backwards without modifying the part because the pin that inserts into C17 is too long if it goes in back to front.

A pic looking down and looking up might help to see what's gone wrong.

Cheers,

Daniel.

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Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions guys, it's really appreciated! The angles of the shaft of the leg seem fine as per the instructions, but it's more the 'twist' of the wheels outwards.

I'm pretty sure I must have done something wrong although I triple-checked that I was using the right parts. The reason I'm questioning it really is because when viewed directly from underneath, the hub attachment is perfectly square to the opening which makes it look 'right' in terms of being able to retract into the wing but means that when down the wheels aren't running parallel:

DSC_0161.jpg

But nothing is glued (apart from the two parts of the leg - I thought this might be easier than attaching the main part of the leg later) so there is no real problem yet but I'm just intrigued about how the angles work really.

Thanks again for the input!

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Hmm, it sure looks as if the angles would correct themselves if reversed- perhaps you followed the instructions properly, but they got the part numbers backwards? Is there anything to stop you putting the wrong leg on the right "top"?

bob

Edit: this builder had the same problem, but I have to empty the dryer before reading the reason!

Edit again: Here's a couple of photos showing what I presume is the correct installation of the upper parts. (This for those of us who wanted to see how it all goes together- I for one haven't managed to get me mitts on one of these new kits (Vb or I) yet.

Edited by gingerbob

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Hmm, it sure looks as if the angles would correct themselves if reversed- perhaps you followed the instructions properly, but they got the part numbers backwards? Is there anything to stop you putting the wrong leg on the right "top"?

HI bob

no, which is why I suggested this, Daniel suggests otherwise, but it was late when I was checking out the possible causes, not helped by having to find the kit first!

I've not got time now to try to recheck this.

Has Jon KT's build reached this point as yet?

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HI bob

no, which is why I suggested this, Daniel suggests otherwise, but it was late when I was checking out the possible causes, not helped by having to find the kit first!

I've not got time now to try to recheck this.

Has Jon KT's build reached this point as yet?

Hi Troy - not yet - but I had no probs with Mk Vb in terms of wheel alignment, and I followed the MK1 instructions re which part number went where for this one. I'm out tonight so wont be able to check - but can do in the morning

Cheers

Jonners ( a little worried now...)

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Hmm, it sure looks as if the angles would correct themselves if reversed- perhaps you followed the instructions properly, but they got the part numbers backwards? Is there anything to stop you putting the wrong leg on the right "top"?

bob

Edit: this builder had the same problem, but I have to empty the dryer before reading the reason!

Hi Bob,

Interesting that that builder had exactly the same result as me when he joined the leg and top pieces together first!

In my mkv build I followed the order of the instructions and had no weird angle, but I just don't understand why it should make a difference?! :hmmm:

I don't really want to separate the pieces now so I might just see if I can orient them slightly differently when gluing them in place.

Thanks again for your comments and I hope anyone else building this finds the discussion useful! (And any aftermarket manufacturers out there - please just make two of these with the correct angles all worked out so we can just drop it in place and not have to worry about it!)

DSC_0173.jpg

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The reason I'm questioning it really is because when viewed directly from underneath, the hub attachment is perfectly square to the opening which makes it look 'right' in terms of being able to retract into the wing but means that when down the wheels aren't running parallel:

Just in case anyone else is using this apparent alignment as a guide, the leg was mounted on a skew pivot which means that it shouldn't "look right" if it appears to be able to retract into the wing. Edited by Graham Boak

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Just in case anyone else is using this apparent alignment as a guide, the leg was mounted on a skew pivot which means that it shouldn't "look right" if it appears to be able to retract into the wing.

Aha! That's fascinating and stops me scratching my head trying to work out the geometry of it all! I couldn't quite get clear in my head how if the wheels were parallel in the lowered position they could fit when up.

So out of interest, how does the 'skew pivot' work?

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There is a pin through the top of the leg (as you might expect). It is positioned at an angle (or skewed) to the normal axes of the leg - perhaps Edgar has a picture to hand that he could show? As the leg rotates outward it also moves around. Other aircraft are similar but perhaps with smaller and hence less noticeable angles.

Skew pivots can be very clever pieces of design: the Jetstream ailerons are controlled by rods moving along the rear of the wing structure, with a "branched" actuating rod fixed at a skewed angle. The aileron has a circular fitting that fits around the actuating rod and so when the rod moves along the wing this is converted to a rotary movement of the aileron.

Another notable use of a skew pivot is the way the folding wings on Grumman aircraft move.

I'm sorry that I may not be explaining it very well, but it is something that is easier understood when seen.

Edited by Graham Boak

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Any chance Airfix can add the missing cowl fasteners to the molds of the VB or MK1?

I think that this U/C system that Airfix used is a mistake. I wonder if they can change this?

I will still get these when I can, but, not happy about the U/C system from what I have seen.

No offence intended.

Edit: Had to tone down my comments. Keep up the good work otherwise Airfix.

Edited by Av8fan

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Any knowledge here about the radio/antenna (what other antennas were on the plane fx.) on this Spitfire HF. IXe from the Danish Airforce. The picture looks like its taken very shortly after the plane was entered into Danish service, since the markings on the plane are different then what it became later.

https://flyvehistorie.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/spitfire-hf-ixe-ta81221.jpg

https://flyvehistorie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/spitfire-hf-ixe-ta8123.jpg

https://flyvehistorie.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/spitfire-hf-ixe-ta8124.jpg

Best Regards

Martin

Edited by Mavster

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Mark, It must be that you got the wrong leg on the right upper- in other words, I can't see how the upper part can be put in the wrong way 'round or on the wrong wing. Without having the parts I can't visualize it more precisely, but I can't see how else they could be so off, especially when someone else has duplicated your result. (When I get one I'll check out this theory.)

Unfortunately I don't know of any correction other than cutting the legs and re-joining them (or complete replacement), but that might give you an "opportunity" to make it better, and still put the leg on later, as others have done, with a pin reinforcement.

Graham's example of the Grumman wing is a good one for the skew pivot. Perhaps to a draftsman it is all in a day's work, but trying to figure out the precise angle to achieve the desired movement seems a brain-twister! In one of the threads I did have a couple of good views of the top of the oleo leg, but I'd have to go digging to find it (perhaps Troy's radar can pick it up...)

bob

Edited by gingerbob

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Martin, it has a whip antenna aft of the cockpit for the radio, and an IFF "rod" under the starboard wing. That's all I can see.

bob

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Re the Airfix mk 1 spit wheel leg mystery. It appears Airfix have incorrectly labelled the instructions.

If you have the model turned over, and pointing forward: Use part C53 on the left hand gear bay, and part C54 on the right hand - and they fit fine - with wheels pointing forward.

This is based on checking the fit on my model

cheers

Jonners

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If you have the model turned over, and pointing forward: Use part C53 on the left hand gear bay, and part C54 on the right hand - and they fit fine - with wheels pointing forward.

Hmm, looking at the Vb kit instructions found online (somewhere!) that one says C53 goes on the "right hand" (port wing) and C54 on the "left hand" (starboard wing)- assuming that I've interpreted your description correctly. Does this mean that both instructions have the numbers reversed, or did I or you get wires crossed? The picture in the instructions has the airplane upside down, nose "away from" the viewer and towards the left- I haven't found the Mk.I instructions to compare it against.

bob

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Actually, the IFF rod antenna is pictured on the second page of your linked article - the Mk.IXs just above the PR.XIX belly. You can see the whip antenna on Spit XIVs, at least sometimes. Look for a Spitfire with no mast, and eventually you'll see the antenna. There's one on this page, for example (APoS of 130 Sqn, about 1/3 down the page).

bob

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So this undercarriage mix-up is due to loose terminology introducing confusion? Don't talk about left wing and right wing - use port and starboard which implicitly refer to the flight axis. Then you don't have to worry about whether it is right way up or upside down, or whether you are viewing it from the front or the back.

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Re : Vb undercarriage alignment

According to my instruction sheet and the plastic, Parts C53 and C54 should be swapped over. The kits method for installing the undercarriage is not very satisfactory is it ?

I agree with Cap'n Boak. We should use Port and Starboard - we are British after all :winkgrin:

Left hand down a bit :captain:

Edited by Sky Pilot

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So this undercarriage mix-up is due to loose terminology introducing confusion? Don't talk about left wing and right wing - use port and starboard which implicitly refer to the flight axis. Then you don't have to worry about whether it is right way up or upside down, or whether you are viewing it from the front or the back.

Re the Airfix mk 1 spit wheel leg mystery. It appears Airfix have incorrectly labelled the instructions.

Use part C53 on the Starboard gear bay, and part C54 on the Port - and they fit fine - with wheels pointing forward.

This is based on checking the fit on my model

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Morning all. I see that one of the marking options in the new AIrfix Mk1 is a pre-war 19 sqdn aircraft with black/white undersides where the control surfaces are marked as aluminium. In the Cross & Scarborough book on the Airfix 1/24 Spitfire a similar scheme is illustrated but with the ailerons painted white on the black wing and vice versa. There is also a picture of the aircraft ( WZ T of 19 sqdn ) where the lower port wing is visible and the aileron is definitely a lighter colour than the rest of the wing.

Does anyone have any idea which one may be correct, I would go for the control surfaces being left in the original painted aluminium. Is there any documentation (Edgar?) for this scheme?

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