Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

[Andre B]

When building an early Spitfire Mk. I by using the Airfix 1/72 kit with the flat canopy and two bladed propeller... ...is there something more to do? Any bumps on the nose that had to be cut away or... ?

 

I have an idea of an Spitfire with silver fuselage underside and white and black wings. Would look nice in company with the Airfix ragwing Hurricane.

 

Cheers / André

[Graham Boak]

Radio aerial?  Protruding flash nozzles on machine guns? Unarmoured windscreen. No pilot armour.

 

[Gwart]

 

 Is that the remnants of a sky band at the tail?.The colour under the exhaust is of interest also.

[jimric]

Malta spitfire question boys.

Any evidence that these carried 90 gallon slipper tanks, not the 120 for ferry flights but range extenders.

[128fiddler]

Hello,

 

I tried to look through all the info on this and the previous thread, but like 98% was about something else... so here it goes.

 

I bought me a spitfire Mk.1b from AZ in 72nd. The kit being quite a challenge, but finding references as well, as big brother google isn't giving me much. Seems it was a version which saw limited production and equally limited action with only a few squadrons.

 

When it comes to the wings, for what I seem to remember reading about Spit wings, is that from a certain point they were standardised with the letter behind a mark illustrated the weapon config. But was this allready in effect with the 1b? So as it comes to wing panels, could I use for example a 5b drawing to compare kit lines? If not, does anyone knows a good source to find acurate b-wing drawings suitable for a 1b?

 

The kit's a bit crude in some places and I want to have it to have uniform panel lines. So some scribing is probably needed. That's why I would like some thrustworthy drawings to work this out. Thanks in advance!

[gingerbob]

12 minutes ago, 128fiddler said:

... from a certain point they were standardised with the letter behind a mark illustrated the weapon config. But was this allready in effect with the 1b?

 

Technically, there never was a "Mk Ib" because by the time the letter suffixes were blessed the available 'cannon Is' had been converted as the first Mk Vs.

 

There were some slight changes to bumps (the cannon fairing bulges) somewhen along the way, but unless you want to get really "on the cutting edge" persnickety about it, a Vb wing will be just fine (except using the shallower Mk I/II style oil cooler).

Edited July 11, 2019 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

the AZ kit provides the different bulges for the early cannon-armed Mk,Is and the standardised B Fit.  Or at least my release does.

[Phas3e]

Hey all,

 

I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for an eventual Revell 1:32 Spit IXc build and had a question.

 

I was thinking of making EN572 as flown by Johnny Checketts and wonder if the Revell kit can do it. The kit had the Slimmer cannon breach bumps and the longer carb intake so am wondering if theres a chance ENxxx spitfires would have had that set up?

 

and also what wheels would it have used? I assume the smooth 5 spoke ones

 

otherwise I'm happy to make any 485 Spitfire that fits the bill (well maybe not Houltons ML407 as its been done enough)

 

Cheers

Edited July 26, 2019 by Phas3e

[gingerbob]

My gut feeling is that, yes, the characteristics you list would be appropriate.  In case you haven't seen it, this thread might be of interest.

[Phas3e]

No Serial but heres another which seems to have the larger breech bulges but, as the thread suggest it seems to have 30' individual codes and 24' squadron ones.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Phas3e

[Smithy]

On 7/27/2019 at 3:13 AM, Phas3e said:

No Serial but heres another which seems to have the larger breech bulges but, as the thread suggest it seems to have 30' individual codes and 24' squadron ones.

 

 

That's Chalky White's Spit (BS543) after being shot down over France on the 22nd August 1943. By the way, the story of his evasion and escape in the book "Pilot on the Run" is a brilliant read.

 

Chalky's Spit was an early IXc with the broad cannon blisters and the shorter intake.

 

485 is one unit I have a very large interest in so I have quite large amount of information and photos on them. PM me as I'm happy to help with codings, serials, photos, even airframe histories for 485 Spits if you want help.

 

Tim

 

 

[Phas3e]

Thanks for that, I should have realised that it was Chalky Whites plane.

 

I have 'pilot on the run' but all my books are in storage as we are building a new house atm, I also have the New Zealand Spitfire Story and a couple of 485 Squadron books plus pilot bios, so hopefully that will suffice when the time comes.

 

I'm happy to build a plane that was just a general squadron work horse, I'm not worried about flashy markings just keen to have one that fits the revell kits lumps and bumps.

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

EN575 was part of a batch of Spitfire V airframes converted by Rolls Royce. These would have not been the very early conversions, so would have had the standard cowling.

IMHO these aircraft would have left the factory with the short carburetor intake, not the later long one.

They may have received the long intake at some point and for example I've seen a picture of EN568 with the short intake in RAF service and a later postwar picture of the same aircraft with a long intake in Belgian service.

EN568 is interesting here as this machine was not only in the same production batch but also served alongside EN575 in the Biggin Hill Wing. There's another picture of EN568 that shows another feature of these early aMk.IXs: the Mk.V style elevators, without the larger horn of later IXs. The same picture shows a narrow bulge over the gun bay

[Smithy]

21 hours ago, Phas3e said:

Thanks for that, I should have realised that it was Chalky Whites plane.

 

I have 'pilot on the run' but all my books are in storage as we are building a new house atm, I also have the New Zealand Spitfire Story and a couple of 485 Squadron books plus pilot bios, so hopefully that will suffice when the time comes.

 

I'm happy to build a plane that was just a general squadron work horse, I'm not worried about flashy markings just keen to have one that fits the revell kits lumps and bumps.

 

 

 

 

If you have Gerard Morris' "Spitfire: The New Zealand Story" then you really have a huge amount of options. Just be aware that the OU-H in the line up photo in the link that Gingerbob posted is not EN572. That photo was taken at Bovington on the 30th March 1944 and is actually MK198.

 

One thing with 485's IXs was that the squadron ID code of OU was almost exclusively applied to the right of the roundel on the starboard side.

[Phas3e]

Awesome, thanks for the help guys, I think I will rule out EN572 and go for a slightly later build thats more likely to be a straight IXc rather than possibly been converted.

 

I guess if I get get Xtradecals RAF 24 Inch letters in sky (maybe the 30 inch if need be) and the 4inch serials in black I can make my mind up at a later date.

[Gazontipede]

I'm working on a Sword high back XIVc at the moment. I see that on the underside of the wing there are recesses which are apparently representing a pair of lamps, one port, one starboard, just outboard of the roundel locations. Looking at my Eduard Mk.VIII in the stash I see that, according to Eduard, these are coloured lamps of the appropriate red/green to match the wingtip nav lights. If so I'm assuming these replace the signal lamp(s) found under the belly of the aircraft on other marks.

That said, the only Mk.XIV photos I've found online which show these lamps so far show them as bright circles which appear to be the same colour (hue & brightness appear to match) which I wouldn't expect if the lenses were tinted red and green. (Of course if the bulbs were red/green  and the lenses clear that would explain it.)

Does anyone have a definitive answer as to what these were and suggestion for how I should finish these on the model?

Currently I've silvered the recesses. Do I add clear colour tints on top of that or simply clear gloss varnish them?

[Biggles87]

RAAF Spitfires and the Vokes filter.

I am planning to build an RAAF Spitfire Vc soon, my preference being JG912 UP S based in New Guinea in 1943. I have a DK Decals sheet which features this aircraft and shows it without the Vokes filter under the nose, which surprised me. Can anyone out there confirm that this is correct, as I cannot find any ‘photos of Aussie Vcs without the filter.

 

John

 

[Smithy]

23 minutes ago, Biggles87 said:

RAAF Spitfires and the Vokes filter.

I am planning to build an RAAF Spitfire Vc soon, my preference being JG912 UP S based in New Guinea in 1943. I have a DK Decals sheet which features this aircraft and shows it without the Vokes filter under the nose, which surprised me. Can anyone out there confirm that this is correct, as I cannot find any ‘photos of Aussie Vcs without the filter.

 

John

 

 

RAAF Spitfires aren't my area of interest but if the sheet is anything like their 485(NZ) Sqn Spitfire sheet, I'd tread very carefully. The 485 sheet is absolutely riddled with inaccuracies so it wouldn't surprise me if this Australian sheet also includes the odd fault. On the positive the decals themselves are superb quality and go on beautifully.

 

I'm sure someone will be along shortly who will be able to help you out.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Smithy
Typo

[Hornet133]

@Smithy

 

If you have details of 'errors' on the 487 Sqn sheet could you please supply a detailed list on the Forum of them for:

 

A. The benefit of fellow modellers to get their models correct

B. To enable Franta at DK to get possible reprints of the sheet corrected.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Hornet133

[Hornet133]

@Biggles87 At one stage 79 Sqn RAAF experimented with making up their own lower cowlings on the unit to replace the Vokes Tropical intake.  They were not very successful for a number of reasons and were later removed, revoking to the use of the Vokes filter again. Some photos NOT attached as the stupid system did not work. Go here for them.

 

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/SPITFIRE/P019253

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Spitfire-A85-176/P029041_sized

 

BTW UP-Z in the first photo is a Mk.Vc (with the outer cannon stub removed) NOT a Mk.Vb as had been claimed many times.

[Smithy]

35 minutes ago, Hornet133 said:

@Smithy

 

If you have details of 'errors' on the 487 Sqn sheet could you please supply a detailed list on the Forum of them for:

 

A. The benefit of fellow modellers to get their models correct

B. To enable Franta at DK to get possible reprints of the sheet corrected.

 

I can do it this evening but it'll have to wait until the kids are in bed!

 

I'll post it here in this thread later on.

[Smithy]

4 hours ago, Hornet133 said:

@Smithy

 

If you have details of 'errors' on the 487 Sqn sheet could you please supply a detailed list on the Forum of them for:

 

A. The benefit of fellow modellers to get their models correct

B. To enable Franta at DK to get possible reprints of the sheet corrected.

 

Ok, here are the problems with the 485(NZ) Sqn sheet.

 

1. First off and this is a pretty big problem across several profiles, all the aircraft carrying the Dark Green and Dark Earth scheme are supplied with the wrong coloured codes. The codes on the sheet are only in Sky but 485 was the same as standard day fighter squadrons in Fighter Command and carried medium sea grey codes with the earlier day fighter scheme.

 

2. Not really an error but something to be aware of. Profile #1 X4620 is speculative as no photo exists of her 3 months with 485.

 

3. Profile 2 is incorrect. R7820 never served with 485. P7820 did serve with 485 from 31/5/1941 until 20/8/1941. She was coded C and was named PARGANUS I though.

 

4. Profile 4 should more likely be in the Dark Green/Mixed or Ocean Grey/Medium Sea Grey if you want to portray her as she appeared in the photo of Frecklington sitting in the cockpit. AB918 was TOC by 485 on the 10/8/1941 so unlikely that she would have spent more than a week in the earlier scheme. 

 

5. Profile 5 should certainly be in the new DG/Mixed or OG/MSG scheme. She was TOC by 485 on the 30/8/1941 so over two weeks after the changeover and would have had the new scheme applied when she was with 24 MU immediately prior to 485. All the photos of W3528 at Redhill show her in the new scheme.

 

6. Profile 7, the code is speculated to be M. Once again she should be in DG/Mixed or OG/MSG. She was TOC on 30/8/1941 (same day as W3528) and also from 24 MU. Once again existing photos show her in the later scheme.

 

7. Profile 12 is incorrect. Doug Brown's "Wine, Woman & Song" was BM200 and not BM199. "Wine, Woman & Song" should also have C type roundels and the later fin flash with the narrow white stripe. Doug did have BM199 earlier as a regular mount and she did have the A type roundels but carried no nose art and carried the rounded style code font. Doug was a friend of my father's and I made BM200 a couple of years back...

 

"Wine, Woman & Song"

 

As I mentioned above the quality of the decals is exceptional so it would be great if they could just tweak the accuracy of the sheet and then they'd have an absolute winner. A 1/48 scale release of a corrected set would also be very welcome!

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Hornet133]

Smithy, thanks for the listing of problems. #1 the wrong coloured code letters should never had got through for sure.

[Magpie22]

21 hours ago, Biggles87 said:

RAAF Spitfires and the Vokes filter.

I am planning to build an RAAF Spitfire Vc soon, my preference being JG912 UP S based in New Guinea in 1943. I have a DK Decals sheet which features this aircraft and shows it without the Vokes filter under the nose, which surprised me. Can anyone out there confirm that this is correct, as I cannot find any ‘photos of Aussie Vcs without the filter.

 

John

 

Hi John,

 

You don't have to build JG912, UP-S, without the tropical filter. She flew both with it and without it. Initially, all No. 79 Squadron's Spitfire VC aircraft were fitted with a RAAF modification to get a more 'temperate' lower cowling appearance. After the squadron moved from Goodenough Island to Kiriwina Island, they fitted the tropical cowling, as damage to the engines from coral dust became a pressing consideration. I have attached a couple of shots of her fitted with the tropical cowling. The in-flight shot was taken in March 1944 when the squadron was relocating to Los Negros Island. By that time she would have been wearing the serial, A58-180. (The RAF serials were replaced by the RAAF stores ref at the end of November 1943). A word of warning: if you plan to do her with the 'temperate' lower cowling, the shape was slightly different and the carburettor intake is different.

 

JG912 was adopted by Sgt, (later F/S), Neville Faulks and he flew her for a year until he left the squadron, just before the move to Los Negros. Nev flew nearly 40 ops with No. 79, many in JG912. Other notable pilots that flew her, were the squadron CO, S/L Rawlinson, and the Wing Leader, W/C Arthur, both aces from the Western Desert. Nev was a farm hand before he enlisted, so the bull motif is quite apposite!

 

I haven't seen the DK sheet but, as they are often incorrect in their colour call-out, I will give you my reading of her colours. I believe that she would have been finished in RAF Dark Earth and RAAF Foliage Green on the upper surfaces and RAF Azure Blue on the under surfaces. Code letter would have been in RAAF Sky Blue, serial Black, and empennage White. (Note that the White empennage was applied at about the same time the squadron fitted the tropical cowling. Before that the empennage would have been camouflaged).

 

HTH,

Peter M

 

 

 

 

 

[Magpie22]

Further to my reply above, I thought that the question of the Australian 'temperate' cowling modification deserves more explanation, so I have added a precis of a more extensive piece I wrote. It may be of interest to the Spitfire afficondos.

 

When the first Spitfire VC aircraft arrived in Australia in 1942, the pilots of No. 1 Fighter Wing, based at Richmond, were of the opinion that a considerable performance gain, (of 20 to 30 mph), could be achieved by the removal of the large cowling containing the ‘tropical’ air filter and replacing it with the ‘temperate’ type of cowling they were familiar with from their time in the UK, flying Spitfire VB aircraft. The Department of Technical Services voiced skepticism over the claimed gain in speed, quoting figures from the UK that the penalty in top speed was only 7 mph.  They also pointed out that other RAAF aircraft, with updraft carburetors, but not equipped with dust filters had experienced considerable engine wear, and they regarded an air filter for the Spitfire as a necessity. Finally, they warned that the Spitfire carburetor intake was sensitive to positioning and the lower cowling shape. This latter was significant because the tropicalized Spitfire had a larger oil tank and the lower cowling would have to be more ‘pigeon chested’.

While this discussion was going on, No. 1 Wing had modified cowlings made at No. 2 Aircraft Depot, and fitted to a Spitfire. F/L Norword conducted flight tests, comparing the modified aircraft with an un-modified one. He found a speed increase of about 3 mph below 10,000 ft and an increase up to 10 mph at 21,000 ft. S/L Alan Rawlinson, on behalf of the Director of Plans at DTS, submitted a report to the D.C.A.S pointing out the reports submitted by No.1 Wing were rather vague and testing need to be done under controlled conditions. It was recommended that until further information and drawings were available from England that any further test be left open pending further information and drawings from England.

 

In mid-January 1943, Vickers Supermarine drawings of the bottom cowling and air intake fairing for the temperate version of the Spitfire VC were sent from England. Also included were figures showing the performances of the temperate and tropicalized Spitfire VC, both with Merlin 45. They showed a speed reduction of 17 mph at FTH, an increase in time to climb to 20,000 ft of ½ minute and, a reduction of service ceiling of 1,000 ft.

 

Spitfire Order No. 11 was then raised to cover the fitting of a temperate style cowling. The RAAF then prepared drawings for a new lower cowling. They did not design a new air intake but retained the stub remaining after the removal of the original tropical intake. As No. 79 Squadron was being formed at the time, the decision was taken to fit all their aircraft with the new cowling, which was being manufactured at No. 1 AD, Laverton. This was done at the end of May. The result turned out to be a mixed blessing.

 

Three aircraft were tested under the control of the Division of Aeronautics by the Special Duties Flight at RAAF Laverton. They were EE610, EE669, and AR621, all Westland built aircraft. Results were mixed. Both EE610 and EE669 exhibited ‘rough running’, (fluctuating boost pressure), with the new cowl, but AR621 ran smoothly. No performance measurements were done with EE669, but for the other two, the FTH was increased by 1,500 feet with the new cowl, but little change in speed was noted. They concluded that the modification had not altered the drag of the aeroplane appreciably and the carburetor intake was far from ideal, but there was an increase in FTH.

 

Page from report showing differences in the two types of cowling

 

Prototype 'temperate' cowling fitted to EE610

 

The stub of the original tropical intake remained as the new carburettor intake. As can be seen it was far from ideal, buing quite close to the skin of the coling and having a cross-sectional area much larger than the Supermarine temperate intake.

 

In the meantime, No. 79 Squadron, (under the command of the same S/L Alan Rawlinson, mentioned above), had been formed, and all their aircraft had the new lower cowling fitted. After they moved North to Goodenough Island in July 1943, the pilots tested the capabilities of their new mounts. One Spitfire reached an altitude of 38,000 ft. At that height max IAS was 110 mph, stall speed 105 mph! The normal maximum height was 35,000 ft, the aircraft reaching 30,000 ft in 17 minutes. However, engine problems were experienced, particularly with engines over-revving. This was not thought to be due to the propeller problems experienced with the Spitfires over Darwin, as pitch control was exercised regularly, but was probably due to carburettor problems.

 

One of the locals compares the effectiveness of his axe to the hitting power of one of 79 Sqn's Spitfires.

Note the large frontal area of the intake compared to a standard intake.

 

Rawlinson told the author that he gave his pilots free reign as to which cowling they preferred on their aircraft and both the tropical and temperate types could be seen on the squadron at the same time. After the squadron moved to Kiriwina Island, the damage that could be incurred by the engines due to coral dust became a major factor and most aircraft were fitted with tropical filters.

 

What seems to have been misunderstood at the time is that it was not the aerodynamic shape of the cowling housing the filter that was the main cause in the drop of performance: rather it was the fact that carburetor air always passed through the filter, even for normal flight. Later filters, as used on the Spitfire IX and VIII, only drew air through the filter for take-off, landing and taxying, reverting back to the normal pitot/ram air intake for normal flight.

 

Peter M

Edited October 1, 2019 by Magpie22