Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I will be starting a build very shortly of K9906 FZ*L with 65 Squadron in 1939.

Wow! Did not realize that 65 Squadron used FZ codes- I was only familiar with their YT coded Mk IIa's, especially the ones that had 'East India' under the cockpits; my favorite being YT-L, serial P7665, which IIRC was the decal choice on the old 1/72 Revell kit. Guess maybe the codes changed from FZ to YT in 1940? Can't wait to see your WIP!

Mike

[Troy Smith]

20 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Guess maybe the codes changed from FZ to YT in 1940?

Most pre war squadrons changed codes at the outbreak of war for security, so Sep 39.

[Graham Boak]

Most = everyone, bar any who missed the memo.  One of the major fighter squadrons, IIRC...

[Johnson]

13 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

FZ*L with 65 Squadron in 1939. 

 

Hi Dennis,

 

This Spitfire is well covered so there are plenty of images on the web. Here are a few I found;

 

 

 

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/november-2014-pre-war-spitfires-14-photos/

 

 

13 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

what about the landing gear ? Doesn't the early Spitfire use a hand pump ? 

 

It almost certainly had the manual hand pumped u/c mechanism. There is some doubt about when the engine driven hydraulic mechanism was introduced, sometime in 1940 on Mk.1 Spits. The givaway is the hydraulic header tank for the hand pumped system which is mounted on the starboard cockpit wall just behind the headrest, the top of it shows slightly above the base of the rear 'canopy', painted silver, and can be seen. But I couldn't make it out on the photos I've found.

 

13 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

The blunt spinner is correct? 

 

As you can see, it has the two-position, three blade De Havilland propeller with a more pointy spinner than the early two-blade Watts prop or later Rotol prop and spinner. I can also see in the photos that it had the early metal ring (or bead) sight and no front armoured glass on the windscreen, early aerial mast and early pitot tube under the port wing.

 

K9906 FZ*L with 65 Squadron in 1939 is actually covered in Eduard's online 'Info' magazine for Dec 2020;

https://www.eduard.com/out/media/InfoEduard/archive/2020/info-eduard-2020-12en.pdf

 

A great choice of Spitfire to model.

 

Best wishes for the build.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

7 hours ago, Johnson said:

It almost certainly had the manual hand pumped u/c mechanism.

Thanks now I know which interior side panel to work with. 

 

7 hours ago, Johnson said:

The givaway is the hydraulic header tank for the hand pumped system which is mounted on the starboard cockpit wall just behind the headrest, the top of it shows slightly above the base of the rear 'canopy', painted silver, and can be seen.

Should be easy enough to make if its not in the kit. 

 

7 hours ago, Johnson said:

As you can see, it has the two-position, three blade De Havilland propeller with a more pointy spinner than the early two-blade Watts prop or later Rotol prop and spinner. I can also see in the photos that it had the early metal ring (or bead) sight and no front armoured glass on the windscreen, early aerial mast and early pitot tube under the port wing.

 

K9906 FZ*L with 65 Squadron in 1939 is actually covered in Eduard's online 'Info' magazine for Dec 2020;

DeHavilland propellor is more pointy and Rotol has a slight kink near the tip correct ? There are two spinners in the kit but the longer pointy one looks like the type on Mk.V’s maybe Im wrong ? I didn't know about the ring/bead but easy enough to scratch build. I knew about the canopy and pitot as Ive got some of those photo’s you’ve posted. The aerial mast is new to me so thanks. And Im off to study Eduards link thanks. 
 

Dennis

[Peter Roberts]

Also non-'armoured' upper fuel tank cover (note also the extra panel line on this panel running horizontally low down on the panel). The serial is in 2" characters on the fin. 

 

As a side note, FZ-A was usually flown by Gordon Olive.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Peter Roberts

[M20gull]

On 15/06/2015 at 12:45, Portamus said:

Hi there chaps,

Have not checked in to this thread for quite some time...

Regarding the SHFs flown by the SAAF, I wish we could positively identify the long winged Spitfire. I have gathered up a number of pics of the SHFs but, to be honest the only one I am interested in, is MA504.

With regard to the pics I posted of the SHF, I am starting to believe that the aircraft is not MA504, as it does have the extended wing tips, where as various shots of MA504 show her to have a normal set of wing tips.

There may some reposted shots...

This aircraft may have the extended wing tips, but we cannot see its serial number

These two shots are of the same aircraft, at different angles, interesting is the lack of weapons on the nearest machine, MH946

This aircraft appears to have no weapons, but the serial does no appear to be MH946

I am fairly certain that we have photos of all four of the modified SHF Spitfires here, however it is quite difficult (at least to my eyes), to see which one, if any had extended wing tips....

Any thoughts?

In response to the thread amazing-resource-of-private-ww2-aircraft-photos-saaf-check-it-out I did some reading on the subject of the SHF IXs, especially of the Operation Record Books at the National Archives.  I looked at records for 41, 91 and 213 RAF and 9, 10, 11 and 41 SAAF.  I have restricted comments here to modelling but would heartily recommend reading the ORBs for details of the running of squadrons during a fairly dull period.  There is discussion here as well.

 

There are 6 SHFs and this is referenced in 41's ORB for April when they get excited about being allocated 2 SHFs as there are only 6 in Middle East Command.  The other 4 are allocated to 213 and 94 squadron, the latter of whom are less than impressed as they arrive with no instructions, equipment or directions as to use!  213 are allocated MH931 and MH993.  No detail on the other four.  Looking at the ORBs and photos the 6 planes are:

 

MH931                  IX            CBAF     33MU 19-9-43 52MU 8-10-43 Charlton Hall 24-10-43 Casablanca 17-11-43 218Grp NAfrica 30-11-43 Middle East 21-6-45 REAF 29-3-46

MH993                  IX            CBAF     33MU 4-9-43 52MU 10-9-43 Crawford W Long 22-9-43 Casablanca 10-10-43 NAfricanASC 31-10-43 RHAF 27-3-47

MA504                  IXT          CBAF     33MU 13-6-43 222MU 22-6-43 Fort Vercheres 1-7-43 Casablanca 14-7-43 Middle East 1-9-43 80S 10SAAF 9SAAF 94S SOC 28-2-46

MA792                  IX            CBAF     9MU 18-7-43 47MU 30-7-43 SS732 5-8-43 Casablanca 18-8-43 218Grp NAfrica 30-11-43 Middle East SOC 31-10-46

MH946                  IX            CBAF     33MU 28-8-43 82MU 2-9-43 Empire Grebe 15-9-43 Casablanca 29-9-43 NAfricanASC 31-10-43 Middle East 21-6-45 Cv LFIX M66 24-7-45 RHAF 30-1-47

MJ227                   IX            CBAF     33MU 18-10-43 222MU 7-11-43 Fort George 4-12-43 Casablanca 22-12-43 Middle East 21-6-45 REAF 29-8-46

 

It seems that there are photos of five of them (other than MJ227), though I have not seen the photos of MH931 and MH993 in the rare book of Spitires in the SAAF.  There is a lot of movement as squadrons come and go.  MJ227 ends up going back to Aboukir in June.  All of the planes are gone in November, presumably as the threat recedes.

 

Armament as stated in many places the SHFs operate in pairs, one with 20mm cannon, one with 0.5 Browning (the armourers in 9 SAAF are disappointed to lose the work on the 0.5s in November).  Looking at MH946 it seems to me that the Browing sits in the cannon bay, as with the earlier MkV high level.  I think that the planes can be converted, e.g. MA504 which has cannon in some shots, not others and definitely has cannon in October

 

Radio only fitted to the machine gun versions, 41 squadron in June complain about not being able to communicate with the cannon versions.  I cannot see an aerial on any pictures of the SHFs but there must be one somewhere!

 

Wingtips the Aboukir MU had produced their own extended tips for the Mk V so could have done so for the IXs.  Certainly a couple of photos suggest extended tips but you cannot be sure everywhere.

 

Fuel In almost all operations the SHFs are recorded as having 30 gallon jettisonable British tanks which I assume means the slipper style.

 

Some asides:

• MA504's period in 80 Squadron was brief and ended with a forced landing on 15 Oct 43 after losing a tyre on take off
• two pilots of 41 squadron make it to 42,000ft on 24 Sept
• there is much reference to pilots having to complete decompression chamber tests to fly the SHFs, which are unpressurised

I'm happy for any comment, especially if I have missed anything.  I'm intending to model a pair but still not decided which.

Edited December 30, 2020 by M20gull
Forgot about fuel tanks

[Bedders]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:42 PM, EwenS said:

The contractual arrangements were such that Westland was given responsibility for development of the Seafire from the MkIIc onwards. Cunliffe-Owen then co-ordinated production with Westland as a sub-contractor (David Brown "The Seafire. The Spitfire that went to sea". Contract details here.

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_Westland.html

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/contract_COA.html

 

With regard to the sting hook stories vary. One version (Thetford's "British Naval Aircraft" for example) reports the sting hook as fitted from the 51st Seafire XV airfame completed. That was before Cunliffe-Owen started building any which probably explains what you read. Other stories (David Brown's "The Seafire" and Kev Darling's "Supermarine Seafire" for example) say the first 384 completed had the A frame hook. Except that was the total production run of the Mark XV and is clearly wrong from the photo evidence.

 

There were 6 prototype Seafire XV, Of these NS487 and NS490 flew initially with the A frame and then later with the sting hook. PK245 also had a sting hook.

 

The first Westland Mark XV production airframe was SR446 completed 31 August 1944 followed by another 8 airframes in 1944. Production was initially slow due to problems getting the Mrk XV cleared by the A&AEE. It then ramped up in 1945 through to the end of the war. But this was in parallel with the wind-down of Seafire III production of which ended in July 1945. Mark XV production ceased in Oct 1945. Mark XVII production began in April 1945.

 

I've positively identified the hook on 22 out of the 250 Westland Mk.XV and looked at a lot of other photos where either serials or hooks are not visible. That is 7 A frame and 15 sting. As far as I can tell the changeover from A frame to sting hook occurred in April 1945 in the batch SR516-547 produced between April & July 1945. SR520, produced in April, was an A frame and SR537, produced the same month, had a sting hook. I've seen artwork, not a photo, suggesting SR530, again an April aircraft, was an A frame (but how reliable that is who knows). The next serial batch was SR568-611 produced from April to July. The first aircraft I have found in this batch was SR572, produced May 1945, with a sting hook. I've not found any A frames beyond that point in that batch or in subsequent batches.

 

So that suggests somewhere between 53 and 70 aircraft from Westland had A frames from the 250 produced.

 

As all the Mark XVII had the sting hook, and that Mark was produced by Westland from April, it seems to reinforce the idea that the sting hook entered production in April 1945.

 

Turning to Cunliffe-Owen, their first Seafire XV, PR338, came off the production line in March 1945 and again initial production was in parallel with the last Seafire III, the last of which left their production line in July 1945. Mark XV production continued until Jan 1946. The production run was cancelled after 134 of the 150 contracted aircraft had been produced. I've positively identified the hook on 20 of those aircraft (11 A frame and 9 sting). The changeover here seems to have taken place in Oct 1945 in the third serial batch PR449-479. This time however I think I can identify exactly when it occurred. PR458 & PR460 were A frames and I can't find a sting hook prior to that. PR461 and PR470 were both sting hooks and I haven't identified an A frame after that point. Quite a number of the Cunliffe-Owen aircraft ended up with the RCN and a lot of photos of them exist which has helped.

 

Cunliffe-Owen began Mark XVII production in Dec 1945 but only produced 20 before production ceased in March 1946.

 

The other Seafire XV mystery is the story of the "last 30" Westland built aircraft being built with the low back and the bubble canopy. That would suggest that the changeover here happened in Aug 1945 at a time when Westland had already begun to build the Mark XVII. I've not seen any photos to verify that. However it was not as simple as the "last 30" aircraft being the last 30 serials issued. That is because SW916, the sixth last Westland Mark XV serial, was a high back.  I do wonder however if it all comes down to the availibilty of the two types of fuselage i.e. they had stopped building high backs and still had Mark XV orders to fulfill.

 

If anyone can add anything I'd love to hear anything that contributes further.

 

 

Just to pick up this interesting discussion, isn't it likely that a number of A-frame XVs were converted to sting-type during their lifetimes? I'm thinking of some of the RCN examples in particular. A question linked to this surrounds the radio antenna that went on the spine of many RCN XVs - it wasn't the traditional post-type design worn by most Merlin Spitfires, and was canted rearwards a few degrees.  My own amateur research indicates that the RCN XVs had the whip-type antenna early on (along with the A-frame hook), but photos show that most aircraft with the sting-type hook also had the new post antenna. The two mods might have happened around the same time. This would suggest to me that the surviving airworthy Seafire XV, PR503, has actually been restored with an incorrect paint scheme for its structural state. By the time PR503 had the post antenna (which the restored aircraft has), it would have been painted in the Dark Sea Grey over Sky (or was it Medium Sea Grey?) scheme, rather than the Temperate Sea Scheme that it currently sports. Lots of guesswork here I admit.

 

Justin

Edited December 30, 2020 by Bedders

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello everyone please excuse my endless string of Spitfire questions. If I’m correct these have Ring & Bead sights, but did the Mk.I K9906 have only Ring & Bead or did it have a true gun sight as well ? Reason I ask is if only ring & bead do I need to remove the gun sight mount or is that where the Ring gets attached ? Here is my build so far I think I have the correct cowling piece here  ? 
Yes I did not forget to put the hand pump on the starboard wall. The reservoir is also behind the seat frame on the starboard wall. Many thank you’s in advance

Edited January 3, 2021 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Work In Progress]

18 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

did the Mk.I K9906 have only Ring & Bead or did it have a true gun sight as well ?

On what date?

[Johnson]

Hi Dennis,

 

3 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

If I’m correct these have Ring & Bead sights, but did the Mk.I K9906 have only Ring & Bead or did it have a true gun sight as well ? 

 

From what I can see in the photos I linked to above, K9906 only has the metal ring sight.

 

 

The simple ring gunsight was located in the same place, the same holder by the look of it, as the later reflector gun sight. Looking at photos of both, it appears that the GM2 Mk II reflector gun sight simply replaced the ring sight in it's holder.

 

Cheers,

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

10 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

On what date?

Summer 1939, @Johnson seems to have the answer. Thank you both for your time and help. 

[Dave Swindell]

11 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

but did the Mk.I K9906 have only Ring & Bead or did it have a true gun sight as well ? 

It will have been built with an ring & bead sight, but later refitted with a Barr & Stroud GM2 reflector sight. These went into production 19th July 1939, so refitting would most likely be after your given timeframe.

[fishplanebeer]

There were various articles in Flypast magazine quite some time ago which covered the reverse engineering undertaken to restore the Hendon Mk1 Spitfire, K9942, back to how it looked when it left the factory at Woolston before all the various mods were added, so this would have included the original gun sight. Unfortunately I don't have the particular copy(ies) to hand as they sit in the growing pile that I've accumulated since the first issue in 1981 but well worth trying to find the articles if you can.

 

The full history of K9942, including references to the Flypast magazine articles, can be found at;

 

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/72-A-263-Spitfire-1-K9942.pdf

[2996 Victor]

Sincerest apologies if this has already been asked and answered in this thread, but I've tried search both via the forum and via Google and not found an answer.

 

Would these seatbelts from Eduard be suitable for early Spitfires? I'm thinking up to Mk.Vc (yes I've an Airfix kit in progress!).

 

Many thanks and kind regards,

 

Mark

[Dave Swindell]

2 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Would these seatbelts from Eduard be suitable for early Spitfires?

Yes, standard Sutton harness, suitable for spitfires right up to late war wen Q type introduced.

[2996 Victor]

1 minute ago, Dave Swindell said:

Yes, standard Sutton harness, suitable for spitfires right up to late war wen Q type introduced.

Thanks, Dave, that's brilliant!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[fishplanebeer]

Re' early versions of the Spitfire there is a new-ish book on early Spitfires published by Wing Leader Publications that looks pretty good based upon the sample pages that are viewable on their web site at:  https//www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/spitfire-mk1-wpa1

 

Tempted to buy it myself once Christmas has been paid for!

 

Regards

Colin.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Ok Im at a loss ? The Airfix 1/48 Spitfire series has parts on the tree but no instructions in any of the boxings for Part numbers G22 ? They look like bulges for the cowling or maybe the gun heating vents ? But in every online copy of the instructions from Mk.I to Mk.V there is no listing of them ? Does anyone have any idea what they are for ? And which mark of spitfire they should be used on ? 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Ray_W]

4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Does anyone have any idea what they are for ? 

Dennis,

Post a pic. I can't find G22 in my spares bag and do not have a fresh sprue here with me to check it out.

Ray

 

[gingerbob]

5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Part numbers G22 ? They look like bulges for the cowling...

 

Yes, it must be the Coffman starter bulge.  Why there are two I have no idea!  Note that the "front of the teardrop" has a small pin, and if you look inside the starboard fuselage there's a hole to drill out in the appropriate place.  Some Vs had the bump, and all Mk.IIs did.

[Rolls-Royce]

On 1/3/2021 at 4:01 PM, fishplanebeer said:

Re' early versions of the Spitfire there is a new-ish book on early Spitfires published by Wing Leader Publications that looks pretty good based upon the sample pages that are viewable on their web site at:  https//www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/spitfire-mk1-wpa1

 

Tempted to buy it myself once Christmas has been paid for!

 

Regards

Colin.

I have that book, and it is an excellent photographic reference. You won't be sorry.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

16 hours ago, Ray_W said:

Dennis,

Post a pic. I can't find G22 in my spares bag and do not have a fresh sprue here with me to check it out.

Ray

 

Sorry for the delay guys, first chance Ive had all day to get in the office. Here are the bulges labeled G22. 
 

While Im here is the color-scheme Natural metal/Silver under DE/DG ? 
Or were the underside colors Black/White wings, silver fuselage, under DE/DG for summer 1939 ? This profile is from the New Tamiya kit, its where my decals come from. 
 

Dennis

[Ray_W]

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Here are the bulges labeled G22. 

 

Bob @gingerbob was right  Coffman starter blisters.

 

Ray

[Work In Progress]

6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

While Im here is the color-scheme Natural metal/Silver under DE/DG ? 

 

Natural metal was never official on Spitfires, A tiny handful got field-stripped unofficially later in the war. Always aluminium dope.

 

By "summer 1939" the order for Night and White undersides, which was interpreted in so many different variations, had been in force for some time and should have been applied. Under-wing serials and roundels were gone by then too. I am pretty sure that all the 19 Squadron aircraft had been done by the time of the May 1939 press day, which is one point of reference. At least some of them had the ailerons in "opposite" colours, and some ailerons may have been left in the original aluminium dope. I note that Tamiya claims that 65 Squadron aluminium-undersides scheme for 1939, but doesn't specify on which date. It is probably okay for an earlier month in 1939. Things changed often in 1939 and 1940.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Work In Progress