Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here

[Work In Progress]

You're asking another very general and broadly-framed question but generalisations are not what make evidence-based models. What are you trying to achieve, specifically? Are you trying to pin down a specific aircraft or unit in a particular timeframe and location? Or do you just want an excuse to build a clipped-wing high-back XIVe

2 hours ago, Vlad said:

Are those restored ones representative of how those aircraft would have been historically? I guess what I mean is, were clipped wings used at squadron level for extended operations or just sporadically on some examples because it could be swapped easily?

 

[Vlad]

Yeah, sorry for being vague, I'm not planning anything specific. I'm satisfied that it was possible. 🙂

[72modeler]

On 6/19/2020 at 3:15 PM, PhantomBigStu said:

Finding it difficult to tell or not from photos but does the BBMF spitfire V AB910 have an armoured windscreen? 

Here is a recent photo taken after she underwent major maintenance. Disregard the modern avionics where the gunsight was formerly located, but it appears she has the internally armored windscreen, That's a mighty purty cockpit!

Mike

 

https://www.airliners.net/photo/UK-Air-Force/Supermarine-349-Spitfire-LF5B/2692335/L?qsp=eJwtjcEKwjAQRH9F9uzBIgj21v6Agv7Ashk1WE3YLNRQ%2Bu%2BuwdvjzTCzkKS34WPXmkE9FbDKg7aUWflVqF/oiTonDc50ydFuUbEZxmO381ZJamP1JLBhEEE2hL8/aYD%2BIhRpg3c/6Byg58a0P7gPseSJ2waM40Tr%2BgW67zEe

 

 

[Meatbox8]

9 hours ago, Vlad said:

Was there ever such a thing as a high back F Mk.XIV with clipped wings? Or were all the clipped ones FR bubble tops?

Yes. There's a photo of a line up of high-back MkXIVs on page 82 of Griiffon Engined Spitfire Aces, published by Osprey.  It is a post War picture of 17 Squadon aircraft while in Japan as part of the occupation forces.  They have quite an unusual scheme but I think Freightdog Models' 'Brits Abroad' decal sheet covers the aircraft nearest to the camera which also has a Squadron Leader's pennant.  Also, I think some of the Belgian Air Force's post-War XIVs were high-backs with clipped wings.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Meatbox8
typo

[Meatbox8]

9 hours ago, Vlad said:

Was there ever such a thing as a high back F Mk.XIV with clipped wings? Or were all the clipped ones FR bubble tops?

I suddenly had doubts about my assertion that Belgian ones had clipped wings but just checked the section on Belgian use in the SAM Publications book and there are several photos of Belgian high-backs with clipped wings.

[Vlad]

@Meatbox8 thanks. So corroberating with the earlier photo, seems to have been more of a Southeast Asia, foreign service and/or postwar scenario than an ETO thing. Some interesting colour choices there for sure! I've found that Freightdog set and decals for the Belgian ones too. I wasn't actively planning on building one, but now I kind of want to... except there's no decent kit in stock in either 1/72 or 1/48.

[Meatbox8]

54 minutes ago, Vlad said:

@Meatbox8 thanks. So corroberating with the earlier photo, seems to have been more of a Southeast Asia, foreign service and/or postwar scenario than an ETO thing. Some interesting colour choices there for sure! I've found that Freightdog set and decals for the Belgian ones too. I wasn't actively planning on building one, but now I kind of want to... except there's no decent kit in stock in either 1/72 or 1/48.

Glad I could help.  Yes, definitely not enough kits of this mark in my opinion, at least not good ones. I was very disappointed with the Sword kit. I don't think I've ever seen a high-back/clipped job in NW Europe wartme service but I'm sure I have seen aircaft in the SE Asia markings (small blue on blue roundels etc) just after the War ended.  When I say I'm sure I really mean maybe!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Would I be correct in painting a 92 Squadron Spitfire Mk.I with a sky bottom, timeframe between July and mid-September ? Or would there be a chance of one of the black white split I.D. options ?

[Black Knight]

Sky, from early June (6th to 11th June) onwards, with roundels added from mid-August, (11th to 18th August)

(first date = on aeroplanes in service, second date = new builds out of factories)

[alt-92]

20 hours ago, Vlad said:

I wasn't actively planning on building one, but now I kind of want to... except there's no decent kit in stock in either 1/72 or 1/48.

Only the Fujimi ones in 1/72 probably. 

btw, the XIVs with the Occupation Forces you would have to be careful with. Some pictures were taken while offboarding the Spits from the transport ships where the tips were removed to save space. 

[Vlad]

31 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Only the Fujimi ones in 1/72 probably.

Don't seem to be any of those around in the usual places.

[alt-92]

That may be my fault  

Emptied the 'bay of those in the last two weeks 

[Meatbox8]

4 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Only the Fujimi ones in 1/72 probably. 

btw, the XIVs with the Occupation Forces you would have to be careful with. Some pictures were taken while offboarding the Spits from the transport ships where the tips were removed to save space. 

Ah.  That's quite annoying of them.  On the other hand as the nearest aircraft has had a Squadron Leader's pennant painted on (Ginger Lacey's aircraft I believe) one would imagine they had been flown a bit.  Plus they definitely have the clipped wing fairing fitted which I would imagine they wouldn't have had if the wing tip was just removed for transit.  I'm harking to the pitcure of some Spit VCs being loaded on to a ship with the tips removed and placed in the cockpit. 

[Meatbox8]

Interesting.  Managed to find a couple of pictures via Google of 17 Squadron Spitfire XIVs in Japan.  One is being crained off Vengeance and has full span wings.  The other is having some maintenance done on it and has clipped fairings fitted.  They both have that rather unusual scheme of green and Medium Sea Grey with pre-War style roundels.  Interstingly there is some profile artwork which illustrates RN153 with a blue spinner whereas both Freightdog and Xtradecal have gone with red.

[Vlad]

That MSG + Green high contrast scheme is very smart actually, I like it. I guess the reason I've started this conversation is because what I really want is a Mk XII, but there aren't good kits of those either, so I went looking for another high-back, clipped wing Griffon. I've discovered some nice subjects along the way but hit the same issue with kit availability 🤣

 

On the subject of spinners, what's the rhyme and reason behind their colours? For example, Airfix's new 1/48 FR XIVe shows Prendergast's plane with a yellow spinner, but I've seen this aircraft in other kits and decal sheets with a red spinner (and indeed built my Sword kit with a red spinner). Why do Airfix now think it was yellow and which is correct?

[alt-92]

5 minutes ago, Vlad said:

what I really want is a Mk XII, but there aren't good kits of those either

The Special Hobby XII isn't that bad... and it's available again with some extra's (a V-1 and a resin pilot figure)

[Vlad]

19 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

The Special Hobby XII isn't that bad... and it's available again with some extra's (a V-1 and a resin pilot figure)

Something about the nose/spinner shape looks weird to me, but I hadn't spotted that box before and it does look tempting, especially for the pilot and stand (I like wheels-up displays). I also frequently walk past a plaque in my town that says something to the effect of "one of the first wingtipped V-1s landed near here", so it would be quite fitting.

[Meatbox8]

31 minutes ago, Vlad said:

Something about the nose/spinner shape looks weird to me, but I hadn't spotted that box before and it does look tempting, especially for the pilot and stand (I like wheels-up displays). I also frequently walk past a plaque in my town that says something to the effect of "one of the first wingtipped V-1s landed near here", so it would be quite fitting.

What about the Airfix Mk XII, or is it unavailable at the moment?  I'm a 1/72 man myself.  The Xtrakit (Sword?) kit wasn't bad but I think they are very rare now.  As for spinners I suppose black and white photography doesn't really help. 

[fastterry]

Guys, look up 'So what's actually wrong with Special Hobby's Spitfire XII' for some discussion on said kit. All 1/48 Spitfire Mk XII kits have flaws and until somebody like WNW or Eduard produces one a fair amount of kit bashing is required to get close to an acceptable prototype. I've built three, Airfix, SH and a kit bash and a 1/32 Hasegawa/Grey Matter Figures combination and I'm still not happy. I think my next attempt maybe an Eduard Mk V (when they're released) back end with a suitably shortened Airfix Mk XIV nose. A suitable 4 blade Griffon spinner may be a problem but I think the SH spinner and props can be made to work with some effort. Release the hounds.

TRF

[Vlad]

8 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

What about the Airfix Mk XII, or is it unavailable at the moment?  I'm a 1/72 man myself.  The Xtrakit (Sword?) kit wasn't bad but I think they are very rare now.  As for spinners I suppose black and white photography doesn't really help. 

The Airfix is also unavailable, but has other shape issues (too tall fuselage). I'm a 1/72 man most of the time, a Mk.XII is something I'd be willing to make an exception for and move up a scale (as I have done for a couple of Bf 109s so far). The Xtrakit looks good but also hasn't been available for some time.

 

4 hours ago, fastterry said:

Guys, look up 'So what's actually wrong with Special Hobby's Spitfire XII' for some discussion on said kit.

I started that 😁 it's why I have misgivings about buying the Special Hobby kit.

[Giorgio N]

Most pictures of 17 Sqn. XIVs in Japan seem to show clipped wings, so the configuration was likely very common for these.

There are other pictures of high back XIVs with clipped wings in SEA and none in Europe for one main reason: units in Europe had left the high backs by the time their missions required clipped wingtips. On the contrary those high backs sent to India found themselves operating for a longer time.

 

Spinners were supposed to be painted according to theatre requirements during WW2, however by the end of the war and in the later postwar years some squadrons started applying some colour. There's no fixed rule for every unit, in some squadrons the spinner was in the flight colour, so aircraft from the same unit could have worn different colours. In other units the spinner colour was used to identify the squadron within a wing. Other units just applied a colour that was for some reason associated with the squadron.

As most pictures of aircraft in this era are B/W, the identification of the spinner colour is not always easy. For this reason the same aircraft may have been depicted with different colours over the decades, depending on the current interpretation. The most recent research in general tend to be the more accurate, but there are myths that keep being passed down the years even when proper research has shown them to the not correct.

[Dave Fleming]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

Most pictures of 17 Sqn. XIVs in Japan seem to show clipped wings, so the configuration was likely very common for these.

There are other pictures of high back XIVs with clipped wings in SEA and none in Europe for one main reason: units in Europe had left the high backs by the time their missions required clipped wingtips. On the contrary those high backs sent to India found themselves operating for a longer time.

 

One thing to watch if modelling a 17 Sqn high back of this era is that some/all of them were fitted with the larger rudder usually seen on low back mk 14s (and mk 18s) - e.g. RN185 (p 76-78, Camouflage and Markings No.5 RAF Fighters 1945-50 Overseas Based(Paul Lucas))

[gingerbob]

An example: https://www.reddit.com/r/RoyalAirForce/comments/4ycey0/a_spitfire_from_17_r_sqn_undergoing_field_repairs/

 

(If you click on the image you can see it really big.)

 

[EwenS]

High backed F.XIVe were issued to 132 and 17 squadrons in southern India in summer 1945. 11 sqn was the first to receive low back FR.XIVe. Those were the only squadrons with them by VJ Day. All these aircraft kept the full span wings as it was planned that they would fly off the escort carriers Trumpeter and Smiter during Operation Zipper in Sept 1945. Their shore tests showed clipping the wings added 100 feet to the take-off distance. 11 & 17 squadrons carried that through and were based at various airfields in Singapore & Malaya between then and April 1946, when they left Singapore for Japan.

 

132 sqn went to Hong Kong in Sept 1945 but it’s aircraft were lightered ashore. After disbandment in April 1946 those aircraft seem to have gone to Japan where there were serviceability problems with the Spitfire fleet. The other Spitfire XIV sqn to go to Japan was 4 Squadron Royal Indian Air Force. It too trained for carrier take-offs.

 

All the squadrons going to Japan we’re transported in HMS Vengeance. Some photos here and the Spitfires on deck appear to have full span wings.  http://www.hms-vengeance.co.uk/vengpic10.htm  4 squadron RIAF took 22 aircraft to Japan from India. There is a picture here of them at Miho with low backs seemingly being stripped of their camouflage and with the aircraft in the foreground with its wing tip off. 4RIAF left its aircraft in Japan when it returned to India in July 1947.

 

All the Spitfires were stripped of useable components and the remains scrapped in Japan when 11 & 17 disbanded in Feb 1948.

 

So it seems to me that all the aircraft that went to Japan probably had full span wings. Sometime during their stay the wingtips were removed. This would make sense as their operations were mainly at low level on armed recce and as a show of force to ensure there was no trouble from the Japanese populace.

Edited July 8, 2020 by EwenS

[Meatbox8]

Further to the discussion regarding high-back, clipped wing Spitfire XIVs I have a similar question regarding the Spitfire IX, namely were high-back, clipped wing Spitfire IXs ever operated during WW2?  Most picture I have seen of similar are Spitfire XVIs.  All the picks I have of Wartime MkIXs have full span wings.