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Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here


Sean_M

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When the sky is bleached out like that, most likely it is a blue filter changing the tones.  On Orthochromatic film, the altered tones from the filter are quite more extreme. Here is a digital study on a roundel using software that emulates film types and 100% blue filter:

 

pfWC8Gf.jpg

 

regards,

Jack

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't know of any example of either, but the small belly tank had become common use on late-war Spitfires.  Their main duties however were initially interception, and later fighter-bombing, neither of which require tanks.  

 

By then, longer range missions were being carried out by USAAF P51s and P-38s, and RAF Thunderbolts.  

 

PS  The Mk.VIIIs already carried an extra 38 gallons more then the Mk.IX.

Edited by Graham Boak
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On 4/21/2020 at 11:13 PM, JackG said:

When the sky is bleached out like that, most likely it is a blue filter changing the tones.  On Orthochromatic film, the altered tones from the filter are quite more extreme. Here is a digital study on a roundel using software that emulates film types and 100% blue filter:

 

 

Blue filters were very rarely used in b/w photography. Their only earthly use was for exagerating haze in the background to gain a 'mystical' effect. If you really wanted your pan film to look more like an ortho film, a blue filter would help to do that, but a blue filter with ortho film is a waste of time.

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Hello Magpie, thank you for the low down on blue filters and b/w photography.   From what I've read, all filters have their good and bad points.  The positive about the use of blue "... if you want to brighten blues it’s the one! Warm colors will be darkened and red turned into black, which can help to separate elements in a mixed colored scene."

 

Concerning the photo software emulator I've used above, it  was designed by Jan Esmann, a Danish realist painter and programmer.  His products have been embraced by photographers around the world, so he must be doing something right?

 

Out of the available filters provided to the user (magenta, cyan, green, yellow, orange, and red), blue is the only one that flips the tones such that blue becomes lighter than red.  Maybe I'm not using the correct type of film to mimic that effect, can you suggest another period brand that was used in the UK?   The software is limited to these choices:

 

mJH39sr.jpg

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

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Hello everyone, 

        Im really sorry to bother you but was hoping you could help me with something. Im building two Eduard Mk.VIII’s, and am planning on using Carpená decals for one of my build’s. I want to build G/C Robert Finlay Boyd’s Spitfire. However there seems to be some discrepancies with the scheme. This is the plane Im looking to build. 
5tCgmhr.jpg
I know the yellow leading edges are definitely incorrect for the SEAC theatre ? It should be bands on upper/lower surfaces ofwings, horizontal Stabs, and vertical stab., not including the fabric surfaces. Now I had always thought they were white ? However Ive read or thought I had read recently that the I.D. bands on these were possibly a pale blue ? Which is correct white, blue, or no stripes as this profile shows ? My apologies for being such a bother over the last month. However Im finding I know only the surface of Spitfire history, so Im trying to learn more as Ive now got four builds going. 

 

Dennis

 

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Bands were white.. or better they were white on camouflaged aircraft and dark blue on aluminum painted or NM aircraft.

However, these bands were only introduced in early February 1945, so previously there were no bands. And were also on wings and stabilisers, so Carpena is not correct... they claim 1944 for this aircraft, if so there should be no band. If after Feb. 45, then bands everywhere (but not on control surfaces). 

Yellow leading edge stripes should not be present. In any case I'll see if I have a picture of that specific aircraft 

 

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Frank Wooton's paintings of 607's Mk.VIIIs at Mingaladon in Burma shows white bands with pale blue codes.  This must have been fairly late on in the war (apologies for not looking up the exact dates) so had there been any change to light blue bands this could only have happened at a very late date.  Personally I consider it a misunderstanding, until proven otherwise...

 

Annoyingly the paintings show white spinners, whereas I was working to another source saying they were Dark Blue.  Guess I've at least one model's spinner to repaint.

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607 was at Mingaladon from 14th May until disbandment on 19th Aug. Mingaladon is just north of Rangoon now Yangon) So didn’t fall into Allied hands until the very end of April / beginning of May 1945.

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Thanks for the answers everyone, As this is late 1944 then No bands, white spinner. Now the colors for Camouflage, are they correct as Dk.Green/Dk.Earth over grey. Now I didn't know about 607 Squadron and that is another I should look at then. I did a little digging and found the decals are incorrect, its 293 wing not 239. I also presumed the squadron was possibly 615 Sq. so will research 607 Sq. also. Thanks again for being patient with me. 
 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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Definitely DG/DE not any form of grey.  It is possible that the Dark Earth was somewhat darker than the usual UK colour because of its supply being "local" - in quotes because that included Australia, apparently.  The use of pale blue codes is comparatively recent news to the modelling world.

 

There were a number of other units operating Mk.VIIIs in the theatre, most notably 80 Sq but also 155 and others that haven't sprung to mind.  Indian Air Force units were converting to the Mk.VIII but this did not happen in time for hostilities, although IIRC they did take Mk.VIIIs to Japan as par of the occupying forces.

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81 sqn not 80 which was in NW Europe.

17, 67, 152, 136 (in the Cocos Is from April 1945) also come to mind. There was also one RIAF sqn saw service with Mk.VIII but I can’t remember which off hand.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Definitely DG/DE not any form of grey.

Sorry that was supposed to say over grey. I missed it as a typo, corrected now. The scheme shows over med.sea grey but I thought earlier schemes from India-SEA list a possibility of sky blue or azure blue undersides. Thats why I asked the question. 
 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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On 4/29/2020 at 11:30 PM, Graham Boak said:

I don't know of any example of either, but the small belly tank had become common use on late-war Spitfires.  Their main duties however were initially interception, and later fighter-bombing, neither of which require tanks.  

 

By then, longer range missions were being carried out by USAAF P51s and P-38s, and RAF Thunderbolts.

Possibly for NW Europe, but RAF Spitfires in Italy and Yugoslavia definitely used them for fighter-bomber operations.

 

253 Sqn was equipped with a mixture of Mk VIIIs and IXs and used 30, 45 and 90 gal slipper tanks for a wide variety of missions: the torpedo-type tank was not used.

 

As part of Balkan Air Force, 253 operated initially from the east Italian coast, across the Adriatic to attack targets in Yugoslavia, needing tanks for the range to penetrate far inland. Later, after the island of Vis was liberated they used Vis for refuelling to enable deeper penetration, going on four-hour sorties as far as Romania on at least one occasion. Drop tanks were essential to their operations.

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KevinK:  Please excude pedantry, but as the Spitfire Mk.V, VIII and IX  carried any significant bombs on the centre-line, they could not be using them for fighter-bomber missions with centre-line tanks.  Fighter escort or strafing missions yes.   For which the Mk.VIII would have been preferred because of its significantly greater internal tankage.  There's an interesting sidelight on these in the book on Yugoslav Spitfires, where the pilots suggested that they would be better off with Hurricanes (like their sister squadron) because the rockets gave a safer distance from the target compared to the use of strafing with cannon.

 

Corsair/Giorgio:  There have been arguments made for Sky Blue or Azure Blue undersides in SEAC, but by mid-1944 the official Medium Sea Grey had been around long enough to have replaced any such.  The Wootton paintings show a grey not a light blue for the undersides.

 

PS, I had forgotten that some late IXs did carry 2x250lb on the wings, thank you alt-92 below!  However, as he ssays, these bombs were thought too light, and were also blamed for the failures of some wings during pull-outs from diving attacks, which discouraged their use.  However, they were used, and of course could be with the centre-line tanks.

Edited by Graham Boak
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Just spent some time reading up on 126 Wing (mostly IX equipped) ops in Europe after D-Day. 

They were tasked with rail interdiction strikes after Market Garden, and there's a pretty good description on tactics & standard loadouts.

Apparently, the 500lb centerline was preferred, as the 250lb lacked the punch (and frequently gave troubles releasing).

There are some good pictures with 2x 250lb & small slipper tank around, but when carrying the CL 500lb, range was limited.

Edited by alt-92
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Question regarding Jonny Johnson’s XIV MV268, I have the sword instructions in front of me depicting it as a normal wing with large JEJ markings and then clipped with small JEFF markings, and a then there’s a modern restoration of with JEJ but with clipped wings. Bit confused as to what wing/marking combo would be accurate for the original? 

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I would ignore the restoration, they seem to have just painted on the letters JEJ in the usual fashion which is probably not correct.

 

There was a profile in the October 2006 issue of Model Aircraft Monthly MV268 which has JEJ in large white letters forward of the roundel as in the above photograph.

 

There are two photographs of his last Spitfire, MV257, on page 31 of 2nd Tactical Air Force vol 1. The wings are not clipped and JEJ (Sky on the profile) in small letters in front of the pennant.

Edited by 303sqn
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Just because it was full span in one photograph doesn't necessarily mean it was always full span.  It is a simple screwdriver job to change the wingtips.  Of course, some people have a  personal modelling ethos of only building what they have photographic evidence for, and that's a perfectly good and clear path to follow so you might well prefer another example of the type.

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A good general rule is that Fs will have full wingspan because they were used for high-altitude work rather than getting down among the weeds.  AFAIK all the FRs were clipped wing because of the opposite reason.  When they were replaced by jets in the high level fighter work postwar, than that could be different.  I'm pretty well sure ()ok, moderately well) that I'ver seen a postwar F in RAuxAF service with clipped wings  (as in, I have a model of a 607 example so there must be a photo somewhere).

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On 5/1/2020 at 1:19 PM, Graham Boak said:

KevinK:  Please excude pedantry, but as the Spitfire Mk.V, VIII and IX  carried any significant bombs on the centre-line, they could not be using them for fighter-bomber missions with centre-line tanks.  Fighter escort or strafing missions yes.   For which the Mk.VIII would have been preferred because of its significantly greater internal tankage.  There's an interesting sidelight on these in the book on Yugoslav Spitfires, where the pilots suggested that they would be better off with Hurricanes (like their sister squadron) because the rockets gave a safer distance from the target compared to the use of strafing with cannon.

Sorry Graham, but that's not entirely true.

 

The Spitfire VIIIs and IXs of 253 and 73 Sqn carried 2 x 250 lb bombs on the wing racks and a 30, 45 or 90 imp gal tank on the centreline. The missions flown were dive-bombing missions against road and rail targets in Yugoslavia: typical anti-train strikes would involve dive-bombing the tracks as well as the train itself. Tunnels and marshalling yards were also attacked in this manner.

 

The Hurricanes of 6 Sqn themselves needed Spitfire escort, because the Hurricane's performance was so low as to make it very vulnerable to light AA. The Hurricane also didn't quite have the range, as its drop tanks used the same wing stations as the rockets, so 6 Sqn a/c carried only four rockets and one 44 gal tank. I agree that rockets would have been useful, but the only aircraft in the theatre cleared to use rockets in 1944/45 were Hurricanes and Beaufighters. However, my father, who flew Spitfires with 253 Sqn said he found the gun armament useful: cannon for locomotives and .303 for trucks, easily selectable during an attack with the rocking gun button - the mnemonic was "BBC" from top to bottom - "Brownings, Both, Cannons".

 

Agreed that the extra 18 gal/ side of the Mk VIII made it preferable, but I once asked my Dad this very question. He remarked that they never had enough Mk VIIIs to send out anything other than a mixed formation of VIIIs and IXs.

Edited by KevinK
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