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Vol 2 All the Spitfire questions here


Sean_M

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While on the subject of cannon bulges.

 

Is there a set of decent drawings showing the cannon armed Spitfire I wing?

 

Reason I ask is that I've got the 48th Airfix Vb and Ia and am planning to do a Va. Douglas Bader may have his faults but he was a very brave man and I think one of his later mounts would be good. I thought I could simply swop the wings back to do the Ib(?) but reading back it seems not.

 

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The first deliveries of the cannon-armed Mk.I were fairly rapidly withdrawn and the wings replaced with (or possibly just modified to) the B standard.  So there were cannon-armed Mk.Is and Mk.Ib - the same aircraft but at different times.  These were then converted to Mk.Vb, and (I gather) this is how we see them in photographs. I would assume that there were Mk.Ibs that hadn't previously been cannon-armed Mk.Is, but can't confirm this offhand nor quote a serial without doing some digging.  So you can simply swap the wings, just be careful about which aircraft you choose.

 

I don't recall seeing a decent quality drawing of the early cannon fit, but AZ do a 1/72 model Mk.I which allows you to make one of these, so at least a photo must be available.

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1 hour ago, SleeperService said:

While on the subject of cannon bulges.

 

Is there a set of decent drawings showing the cannon armed Spitfire I wing?

 

Reason I ask is that I've got the 48th Airfix Vb and Ia and am planning to do a Va. Douglas Bader may have his faults but he was a very brave man and I think one of his later mounts would be good. I thought I could simply swop the wings back to do the Ib(?) but reading back it seems not.

 

Hi Nick

There was a thread on the early cannon wing, which had sketches of the earlier bulge, the famous underside shot of a 92 sq  early In, maybe after conversion to VB

Spitfire-MkIa-RAF-19Sqn-QVS-R6923-cannon

Shows the shape.

More from this series here

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/399766-spitfire-mk-ib/

 

And

I am

Note, you can just use a Mk.I kit for  Va , it may have the round oil cooler and metal ailerons, but thats about it, and the old tool I/II/Va kit had Bader markings.

Been threads on this too

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=britmodeller+bader+spitfire+va&oq=britmodeller+bader+spitfire+va

Several, sorry on a damn tablet so a pain to find the right one.

 

HTH

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On 6/27/2018 at 4:16 PM, Graham Boak said:

Sadly no wide bulges in the Mk. VIII issue I've got, for that's what I'd need for the early one I want to do.

 

 

 

the early mk VIII with the wide bulges is about the only mk7/9/16 wing they haven't done

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Does that include their latest offering with the pointed wingtips?  I suspect that (at least some of) these should have the broad fairings.  I have the Weekend RAAF edition: the RAAF example shouldn't but I think that the Broadbent alternative should.

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All the mk VIII kits come with frame F, which is the narrow C blister with the short alierons (The HFVIII due in August has two JF3** (JF322 and JF364) serialled airframes - need to check those.

 

ON a slightly different topic, pondering how easy a conversation to mk VII would be...

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3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Canopy where the rear section goes to the full depth (no requirements for slide rails) and a long narrow intake on the port (I think!) side under the engine. That's about it.

 

Yeah, the canopy is the only real issue, need to dig in the spares box, there may be a Ventura one lurking (notwithstanding the cockpit difference)

Edited by Dave Fleming
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I vaguely recall someone (was it Edgar? apologies if not) posting a diagram(s) for the Mk Ib bulges that showed they were a little different to the later Mk Vb bulges.

 

Someone much more organised than me may have a link to these posts,

 

Sorry I can't be of more help but I suspect, SleeperService, your are correct with your thoughts around simply swapping wings.

 

Maybe worth getting a later oil cooler and doing both a Va and Vb?

 

PR

Edit:

(oops, sorry, just fully read Troys reply so this post is redundant. Was trying to remember your name Troy as a possible source - you are amazing with your organisation!)

Edited by Peter Roberts
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On 28/06/2018 at 12:28, SleeperService said:

While on the subject of cannon bulges.

 

Is there a set of decent drawings showing the cannon armed Spitfire I wing?

 

Reason I ask is that I've got the 48th Airfix Vb and Ia and am planning to do a Va. Douglas Bader may have his faults but he was a very brave man and I think one of his later mounts would be good. I thought I could simply swop the wings back to do the Ib(?) but reading back it seems not.

 

Just to clarify, the  new tool Airfix Mk.I/II kit and the Vb kit use the SAME fuselage parts.  Wing swaps are not necessary.

 

Externally the fuselages are essentially the same, and note that even real Mk.Ib 's were converted to Mk.Vb's 

 

17 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

oops, sorry, just fully read Troys reply so this post is redundant. Was trying to remember your name Troy as a possible source - you are amazing with your organisation!)

Just spend too much time here Peter, but do remember often if certain subjects have been discussed, which does make them easier to find.

Cheers

T

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello 

I have a question which probably has been asked before, yet so far I haven't found the answer. 

What's the fuselage length of Spitfire Mk. V, but without prop? Can be dimensions with rudder. 

Thank you for any help. 

 

 

Have a nice day 

 

 

Dominik

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I searched for this a few years back but was unable to get a convincing answer.  The reason behind my search was that the new (current) Airfix Spitfire Mk.I is not only slightly longer than the previous highly-regarded Airfix Spitfire Mk.I, but all other kits of single-stage Merlin Spitfires.  There's hard information on the length of the Mk.IX, so I tried finding the difference in engine length but even that ended indecisively - some 8 inches appears to be about right but not definitive.

 

The Airfix Mk.IX (recent by my standards) is also longer than previous Mk.IX kits, but this was found to match the highly detailed drawings in Paul Fontenay's epic tome.  So there is a history of model companies underestimating Spitfire lengths, possibly caused by confusion over different rudder and spinner sizes, or some earlier error.

 

So AFAIK the most accurate value of the length of a Mk.I/II/V can be found by measuring a current Airfix Mk.I/II/VA and multiplying by 72.  I agree that this is not really satisfactory.

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7 hours ago, DominikS said:

Hello 

I have a question which probably has been asked before, yet so far I haven't found the answer. 

What's the fuselage length of Spitfire Mk. V, but without prop? Can be dimensions with rudder. 

Thank you for any help. 

 

 

Have a nice day 

 

 

Dominik

A couple of other points.

As Graham notes, the Mk.I and Mk.V are the length.

Also, all Spitfire without the large tail of the 22/24 are the same length between rudder post and firewall, frame 5.

This is 245 inches, or 6623mm full size.

That 129.6 mm in 1/48th

I have prints of the Cooke Spitfire I plane and Spitfire the Canadian Vb, printed to 1/48.

The Canadian ones measures 

129.5 as well as I can measure, ruuder to frame 5, the cowl is 37.5mm, as is the Cooke Mk.I, which is 1mm shorter rudder to frame 5.

The new tool Airfix Vb is 36.4 cowling, but looks to 131mm rudder to frame 5

 

Apologies for the unscientific approach, and I have to out now.

 

@gingerbob may have the exact measurements stashed though.

HTH

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

MH434 seat colour.

I am just resuming my long running build of MH434 by finishing the cockpit. Can anyone confirm that the seat was painted overall grey/green when 434 was re-painted in her original colours sometime in the 1980s. I think I remember seeing a picture of her around that time with the seat removed and it was grey/green, but it could be my memory playing tricks on me.

Thanks in advance.

 

John

PS I apologise if this has already been covered in another thread.

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  • 1 month later...

Me again,

does anyone out there know if the Mk Vb trop cockpit was fitted with the windscreen de-icing equipment. I've just started the HobbyBoss 1/32 version and the Aires cockpit set for the MkV does not have it, so I might be able to save myself some scratch building.

 

John

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A quick question on the Spitfire XVIII.  Should the E wing have access panels over where the old .303 armament would have been on the B or C wing or were these deleted/faired over?  I have just pulled the AZ Models kit from the stash and it has no panel lines in these positions.  However, when I compared them to the Modellers' Data File plans they portray the XVIII as still having these panels.  I have found these books to contain a number of errors (both the colour profiles and plans of the Seafire 47 depicting the beautifully blended carburetor intake as something akin to a P-40 being just one example) so I am rather suspicious of this portrayal.  Indeed comparing the kit's fuselage, and that of Swords XIVe, to the plans shows them to be way out (maybe both kits are wrong but they correspond to each other pretty well so suspect that it is the plans that are incorrect).

 

In short, is the AZ kit correct in depicting these panel lines as deleted?

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14 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

 

Thanks Bob.  That seems to have cleared that up. AZ are right except that they haven't included the hatches for the survival kit.  Even a modeller of my limited skills can rectify that! 

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  • 3 months later...

Concerning the new Tamiya Spit:

 

Please excuse in advance if my question has been answered elsewhere and before:

 

What is the tiny scoop for under the (side) windscreen on the left fuselage (advised to be sanded off) ? 

 

and

Are there any ideas around how to make the best approach to make a long span XIVc based on the upcoming new Airfix kit. Maybe some experts already have hand on the latest testshots?

 

Regards

Andreas Beck

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1 hour ago, ABeck said:

 

Are there any ideas around how to make the best approach to make a long span XIVc based on the upcoming new Airfix kit. Maybe some experts already have hand on the latest testshots?

 

Regards

Andreas Beck

Hard to tell without seeing the new Airfix FXIV , but I would think cross-kitting with an Eduard FVIII would be the easiest. The Eduard kit will give you the C type wing with short ailerons and the high back spine and canopy.

 

Andrew

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14 hours ago, Andrew Jones said:

Hard to tell without seeing the new Airfix FXIV , but I would think cross-kitting with an Eduard FVIII would be the easiest. The Eduard kit will give you the C type wing with short ailerons and the high back spine and canopy.

 

Andrew

 

Another option is the ICM kit, from which I'd just take spine, wingtips, panels for the gun bays and gun barrels.

Eduard parts are sure of higher quality but with the ICM kit being so cheap it's ideal for cut 'n paste jobs 😁

Edited by Giorgio N
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17 hours ago, ABeck said:

 

Are there any ideas around how to make the best approach to make a long span XIVc based on the upcoming new Airfix kit. Maybe some experts already have hand on the latest testshots?

 

Regards

Andreas Beck

!"it depends"  on how much you want to spend, or what you have in the stash you want to chop up.

16 hours ago, Andrew Jones said:

Hard to tell without seeing the new Airfix FXIV , but I would think cross-kitting with an Eduard FVIII would be the easiest. The Eduard kit will give you the C type wing with short ailerons and the high back spine and canopy.

 

Andrew

Andrew's first comment is the most telling,   the suggestion of the eduard VIII is a good one, but, the Eduard kits is covered in rivet holes, the Airfix isn't.

he's also a talented kit chopper, so what might be easy for him could be more work for someone else.  

the Eduard VIII does at least have all the right details, and the XIVc was based on the VIII airframe.

 

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Another option is the ICM kit, from which I'd just take spine, wingtips, panels for the gun bays and gun barrels.

Eduard parts are sure of higher quality but with the ICM kit being so cheap it's ideal for cut 'n paste jobs 😁

The ICM is cheap, and no rivets.  The gun bay bulges are too shallow, but if you take one set (the kit has 3 types) and cut the bulges out by cutting down and keeping the door thickness,  and stick that to another door, it fixes that.  

Wingtips are multiple options in both the ICM and Eduard kits, so they are not the problem, neither is ailerons, which can be cut down. 

 

But really, however you approach this, you have a big job

You either modify the existing Airfix wing,  new bulges,  new tips, modified ailerons.

Fuselage,  either graft on or make a new spine, (which maybe easier)  or graft the nose and tail onto a high back fuselage.   This then depends on how good you are kit surgery.

If you are going to do all that chopping, I'd suggest picking up an Academy XIVc and fixing that (cue raucous laughter) as apart from the spinner,  the rest is fixable "with some modelling skill" 

Just lots of cutting, scraping and sanding.

Really? OK

The nose and spinner are the biggest visual issue, but there are more.

The spinner is unfixable, but a spare is the Airfix Seafire 46/47, if you do a 47. The Academy blades are not too bad.

 

John Adams has said the only accurate bit is the tail!

 

The entire fuselage is too deep,  but the wing is too thick, so that can solved at the front.

the back plate on a Griffon spinner is 28 inches. which is 7/12th's of an inch in 1/48, or .5833, or 14.8 mm. 1mm =approx 2 inch in 1/48 (1 inch = 25.4 mm)

the kit backplate is a scale 30 inch, so it's about 1mm too big, so the above makes the nose ring too small.... so armed with Peter Cooke plans, and a Aeroclub XIV fuselage, I had a quick go at a fix.. and am trying to avoid using aftermarket replacements as well.

the upper line of the fuselage is OK, the problem is the nose is too deep because the wings are too thick!

some saw cuts to reduce the nose ring, and a triangular wedge to bring up the lower cowl line, note how the over thick wing makes the cowl line too low, and thinning the wing will bring the wing up to lower cowl line.

the difference in depth compared to the unmodified cowl is clear.

Spit%2520academy%2520nose%2520mod%2520DS

The cut maybe better to do higher up...more investigation needed.

the backplate of the Academy Spinner is too wide, but it's also too long, and sanding this back will take off the extra diameter I hope.

the prop blades are too short, abour 1mm, and wide, but this looks fixable with a little root extension and reshaping.

 

the rear fuselage can be left, or have backing added inside and thinned down top and bottom, the bottom is the important bit.

I cam to think the exhaust slots are a bit low, no more than 1mm,  but it makes the rocker covers too low.

This can be redone,  but the you move a panel line,  and thus need to redo the fasteners, but you might want to invest in a set of beading tools

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Handmade-Jewelry-Tools-Diamond-Setting-Beading-Stone-Beaders-23Pcs-Set-/122555118797

these are the cheapest, they all come from China and assume they are the same,  while thye may not be an investment if you are a jeweller,  they are fine for plastic!

The Daco nose I have is pretty poor for the fasteners detail, and cutting the nose off make a right mess (putting the conventional solutions into perspective)

 

The wing, apart from being too thick,  has the Tamiya 'too broad in chord' problem,  I think the way is to chop out the ailerons,  and recut the trailing edge,  and you will need to fill the existing flap line, and rescribe the flap line in the right place, the front need doing but that easy, a scrape and sand.

 

and IIRC, the wing is too far back,  but reducing the chord,  if you line the new leading edge up with the fuselage leading edge get to the right place,  though some leftover Eduard leading edge inserts may help. )all the Eduard kits have two types) but it's all do-able, depending on how far you want to go.

 

In addition the wheel wells need the ops taking out, and are too oval, and I think the rads are too wide, but shallow. (and thus can be cut up and rearranged, did did this but not sure if it was right)

 

And, much of the above, the wing shape, position and fuselage depth are also problems on the Airfix XII and Seafire 17!   

 

If you compare the Academy parts to the Airfix XIX and/or 22/24, you get a good idea of the problems.

 

It's all a right faff,  but none of the problems are that hard to fix,  and again, perspective, "oh Falcon do a very accurate vacform mk 18"

yes,. with raised panel lines and no detail parts, and while cutting out a vac is not difficult,  neither is doing the above.

I suspect some of the many Eduard  leftover spare would help, like possibly UC leg and doors, maybe wheels, and a canopy parts.

 

You could just kit bash an Airifx XIX fuselage with an ICM IX wing,  giving you the option to make a PR XI out of the leftovers...

More disussions on the subject here.

 

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I am planning a thematic build, and have two questions to you all Spitfire experts:

 

- Which Spitfire version was the ultimate Spitfire? And I mean compared to contemporary fighters, not compared to other Spitfire versions.

- And, which one was the worst? Still compared to contemporary aircraft.

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34 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

!"it depends"  on how much you want to spend, or what you have in the stash you want to chop up.

Andrew's first comment is the most telling,   the suggestion of the eduard VIII is a good one, but, the Eduard kits is covered in rivet holes, the Airfix isn't.

he's also a talented kit chopper, so what might be easy for him could be more work for someone else.  

the Eduard VIII does at least have all the right details, and the XIVc was based on the VIII airframe.

 

The ICM is cheap, and no rivets.  The gun bay bulges are too shallow, but if you take one set (the kit has 3 types) and cut the bulges out by cutting down and keeping the door thickness,  and stick that to another door, it fixes that.  

Wingtips are multiple options in both the ICM and Eduard kits, so they are not the problem, neither is ailerons, which can be cut down. 

 

But really, however you approach this, you have a big job

You either modify the existing Airfix wing,  new bulges,  new tips, modified ailerons.

Fuselage,  either graft on or make a new spine, (which maybe easier)  or graft the nose and tail onto a high back fuselage.   This then depends on how good you are kit surgery.

 

 

 

I don't know yet how the airfix wing will be moulded, but I don't see why should a kit bash have effects on the ailerons. The Airfix kit will sure have short ailerons, the Eduard VIII has short ailerons and the ICM VIII should also have short ailerons.

Adding wingtips is a very easy job, as long as the chord is close enough.

The harder part would be modifying the wing from the E to the C configuration.. and here a lot will depend on how Airfix will have moulded the wing.

Of course another alternative would be to use the full Eduard or ICM wing and adding the deeper Mk.XIV radiators.,

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