Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I'm hoping an expert might be able to cast some light on this for me: The new Kits World decal sheet KW172125 contains 3 RAF Fortresses, 2 of which are Mk II's (B-17F?) in 'normal' Coastal Command colours of Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey over White. The 3rd however is a Mk.III in Dark Earth, Dark Green over Night and is listed as BU-E 'Take It Easy' KJ177/G of 214sqn RAF Coastal Command. I've googled & searched the web but can't find rerefence to 214 being anything other than attached to Bomber Command, latterly with 100 Group. Is it possible that the squadron, or single aircraft, could have been seconded to assist in Coastal Command missions without being transferred officially? I did find one image of what appears to be a 100 Group B-17 parked near a Coastal Command Liberator on Rekjavik? Thanks Post edited to reflect changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 as you say 214sqn were part of 100 group a special unit for radar counter measurements, and were part of bomber command, but no doubt would have have some joint involvement with coastal command , looks like just the decal makers getting confused, probably impossibly to get a definitive answer as 241sqn operations were very secret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Thanks PhantomBigStu. To make things worse, I've bought the sheet & a Revell B-17G plus Eduard mask set! Ah well, anyone got a Paragon designs 100 Group resin set they'd like to sell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hi Edge this is worth a read http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234929056-info-requested-regarding-b-17-in-raf-service/ note, if you don't have this and want to do a 100 Group aircraft, you need it. I've posted this before as for the equipment fit, cut n pasted from a previous threadFor ECM aerials and the like you [probably] want the "airfcraft of 100 group'' by Martin Streetly, originally a series in Scale Models around 1980 or 81 IIRC, later published as a book.it was aimed at modellers so has details of what was fitted where, inside and out and camo schemes too.Long out of print [and expensive used] ,but pdf's are available online if you search....and before anyone moans it's been out of print for 25 years or more!!!!Just checked the depositfiles, here - http://depositfiles....files/hbqunyag2 The file is available. the depositfile is still up, but the site is in Russian...you want the righthand downlaod option, you'll get a pop-up, just click the 'x' on the corner. Then wait 60 secs and fill in the capture code, you'll then get a download link. Its the same as depositfiles in English, I wrot the above in case you have not used depositfiles before.then do this, click free download, you have to wait a minute, and the enter the 'captcha code', then just follow the instructions.free download might take 10 mins, maybe less. It's only a 105MB fileit's a .rar file, which means you need to un-rar, win-zip will do this, but you can get freeware called 7-zip which works just fine. google it.download 7-zip, install, and right click .rar file, extract to wherever you want it.It's a pdf, you need abobe acrobat or another pdf reader.If anyone here wants info on all the 100 Group types, B-17, B-24, Halifax, Wellington, Stirling, Lancaster, Mosquito and more.... ever wanted a B-17 or B-24 in RAF bomber camo? Here's your chance It's a really really really good book for modeller reference, but very tempting and full of projects.All those funny aerials.....all over the place, all clearly illustrated.you have been warned....specifically for the B-17, the details of what waist gun position etc etc varies A LOT, depending on subtype, like 4 types of waist position, 3 types of tail turret etc, but there is a complete list of planes and serials, and these details here, plus the RAF mods. This is THE reference on the subject I believe. I'd check what the Paragon set had, as it maybe possible to scratch build the modifications, exhaust dampers? . Some 100 Group B-17's had the chin turret replaced with an H2S radome, but a Lancaster one maybe modifiable. The rest of the mods, from memory, are a plethora of aerials. HTHT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Thanks Troy - it's downloading now.... I had no plans to build anything 100 Group - my interests are mainly FAA and Coastal Command, but this does look interesting! Lots of off aerials & lumps all over the place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hi when it has downloaded ......... always virus scan the file before un zipping it some files have things hidden in them cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 this is worth a read http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234929056-info-requested-regarding-b-17-in-raf-service/ note, if you don't have this and want to do a 100 Group aircraft, you need it. I've posted this before as for the equipment fit, cut n pasted from a previous thread For ECM aerials and the like you [probably] want the "airfcraft of 100 group'' by Martin Streetly, originally a series in Scale Models around 1980 or 81 IIRC, later published as a book. it was aimed at modellers so has details of what was fitted where, inside and out and camo schemes too. Long out of print [and expensive used] , but pdf's are available online if you search....and before anyone moans it's been out of print for 25 years or more!!!! Probably more, i remeber searching for that one before I managed to get all the Scale Models back issues. He also did another book that was much more about the operations and less about the aircraft. I'd love to see an updated issue with all the information that has come to light since (Having just got Chris Gibson & Dave Forster's post war Elint book) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungo1974 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) One of our own BM members built one afew years ago. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234912730-fortress-mk-iii/ Also there's 7 or 8 copies of the Martin Streetly book listed on Ebay,just bought a copy myself to replace the one i lent out years ago and never got back Edited March 9, 2015 by mungo1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Probably more, i remeber searching for that one before I managed to get all the Scale Models back issues. He also did another book that was much more about the operations and less about the aircraft. I'd love to see an updated issue with all the information that has come to light since (Having just got Chris Gibson & Dave Forster's post war Elint book) The other book was 'Confound and Destroy' and seems to be available at reasonable prices. Also Martin Bowman has recently written a book '100 Group (Bomber Support) which seems to be based on the airfields but I haven't read it and from what I've seen of recent Pen & Sword books I'd like to see it before buying it. He has also written one called 'Confounding the Reich' - again I haven't seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 214 Sqn were definitely part of 100 Group Bomber Command, I too have that decal sheet and am giving the reference to Coastal Command a sound ignoring. Confounding the Reich by Bowman and Cushing has some good pictures of 214 Sqn Fortresses including the one in the decal sheet. I would say Confound and Destroy is worth getting hold of because it has some useful information about the RCM equipment and the operational use of the Fortress. For completeness, 'Even When the Sparrows are Walking' by Laurie Bettingham is a good read. The Paragon set gives you the flame dampers for the exhausts, a chaff dispenser fairing, aerials and a nose H2S fairing. All that's been needed for a long, long time are a decent set of decals for a 100 Group aircraft - this set gives you just that with the bonus of a couple of interesting Coastal Command Forts too! Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 I think I'll give up on the 100 Group model - it's a bit too much for me without a conversion kit. Anyone know if the Revell B-17 can be built as an F/Fortress Mk.II? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I think I'll give up on the 100 Group model - it's a bit too much for me without a conversion kit. Anyone know if the Revell B-17 can be built as an F/Fortress Mk.II? By 'Revell' B-17, I presume you refer to the 'G' kit above? The 1/48th G kit was originally a Monogram mould, from mid 70's a couple of years later Revell issued a B-17 F. Yes, you can backdate a G to an F, but if accuracy is your thing, expect to do some careful research, and some modifications, as there is a blizzard of details and possible variations. Quite a few of these are listed in the 100 Group book BTW. What you need to do is pin exactly what plane you want to model, and then check what needs doing. I presume you are looking at doing another plane on the sheet Ideally you need to find out what subtype of Fortress II it is, and where it was built and it's block number, as you have things like different nose windows, top turrets, nose blisters and some other stuff i have will have forgotten. At least some of this is visible in the drawings above! I must stress my knowledge of the B-17 is enough to know how blinkin' complex a subject it is and the need to do the research I mention, and is in no way exhaustive. Koster make a vac set of turrets and nose cones/windows to convert to various B-17 configurations BTW. A pragmatic approach would be to see what is need for the conversion, IIRC the main thing is the H2S blister, and have a go at making one, if you succeed, press on, if not, make an alternate B-17. I'll try to find my 100 Group book later and refresh my memory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 The book was easier to find, and easier than scanning a PDF. on page 64-65 of the book is lists the RAF serials, and the US serials and block numbers, allowing the exact subtype to be modelled, as well as a better description of what I was trying to explain.... A profile and description of BU-E is on page 84-85. Here's the Koster B-17 noses http://www.swannysmodels.com/Koster35.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 By 'Revell' B-17, I presume you refer to the 'G' kit above? The 1/48th G kit was originally a Monogram mould, from mid 70's a couple of years later Revell issued a B-17 F. Yes, you can backdate a G to an F, but if accuracy is your thing, expect to do some careful research, and some modifications, as there is a blizzard of details and possible variations. Quite a few of these are listed in the 100 Group book BTW. What you need to do is pin exactly what plane you want to model, and then check what needs doing. I presume you are looking at doing another plane on the sheet Ideally you need to find out what subtype of Fortress II it is, and where it was built and it's block number, as you have things like different nose windows, top turrets, nose blisters and some other stuff i have will have forgotten. At least some of this is visible in the drawings above! I must stress my knowledge of the B-17 is enough to know how blinkin' complex a subject it is and the need to do the research I mention, and is in no way exhaustive. Koster make a vac set of turrets and nose cones/windows to convert to various B-17 configurations BTW. A pragmatic approach would be to see what is need for the conversion, IIRC the main thing is the H2S blister, and have a go at making one, if you succeed, press on, if not, make an alternate B-17. I'll try to find my 100 Group book later and refresh my memory Troy, I think Edge is working in 1/72nd in which case the Revell B-17G is inappropriate for a Coastal Command Fortress II or IIA (which I think were B-17E and B-17F respectively - happy to be corrected). I don't recall Coastal Command using B-17G's, certainly 100 Groups were all ex USAAF stock. I know Revell do a B-17F in 1/72nd but I don't know about a B-17E which may be more appropriate for the Coastal Command aircraft. Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Oh blimey I hadn't realised just what how many subtleties there are regarding B-17s! I am working in 1/72 and have the new Revell B-17G on the way. I've realised it's unsuitable for a Coastal Command aircraft - I have an Academy B-17E in the stash. I wondered if Revell included the F parts in the G kit. Hope this makes at least some sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Oh blimey I hadn't realised just what how many subtleties there are regarding B-17s! I am working in 1/72 and have the new Revell B-17G on the way. I've realised it's unsuitable for a Coastal Command aircraft - I have an Academy B-17E in the stash. I wondered if Revell included the F parts in the G kit. Hope this makes at least some sense! There's no B-17F parts in my Revell B-17G kit, the former came out after the B-17G. I'd use the Academy B-17E for your Coastal Command Fortress II Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelldoc Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) This is the Boeing B-17F Memphis Belle build as BU H from 214 Sqn. with parts from Paragon. Found the original in Aircam Aviation Series No.15 Boeing B-17B-H .... https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/15509973164/ Helpful with a lot of drawings and pics of unusual Fortress from all over the world. modelldoc Edited March 9, 2015 by modelldoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 There's no B-17F parts in my Revell B-17G kit, the former came out after the B-17G. I'd use the Academy B-17E for your Coastal Command Fortress II Wez Thanks Wez. That'll be my plan & put the purchase of the G kit down to haste before research! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Thanks Wez. That'll be my plan & put the purchase of the G kit down to haste before research! What I meant to say is that I'd be using an Academy B-17E to make my Coastal Command Fortress II The 100 Group Fortress III is a more ineresting beastie to me but have to agree, the project is made easier by the use of the Paragon conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 What I meant to say is that I'd be using an Academy B-17E to make my Coastal Command Fortress II The 100 Group Fortress III is a more ineresting beastie to me but have to agree, the project is made easier by the use of the Paragon conversion I would have a go if the Paragon conversion was to be had. Unfortunately it's not & my skills are well below that necessary to research & scratch the mods necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Troy, I think Edge is working in 1/72nd in which case the Revell B-17G is inappropriate for a Coastal Command Fortress II or IIA (which I think were B-17E and B-17F respectively - happy to be corrected). I don't recall Coastal Command using B-17G's, certainly 100 Groups were all ex USAAF stock. I know Revell do a B-17F in 1/72nd but I don't know about a B-17E which may be more appropriate for the Coastal Command aircraft. Wez DOH! Thanks Wez, Not paying attention!!! I missed the '72' in the decal description. At least the actual info about the planes wasn't cobblers. I hope! I was thinking 1/48th Edge, sorry, I don't know much about 1/72nd B-17's, though the Revell B-17 is supposed to have issues. But, you could ask in the wanted section if anyone has a Paragon set, but I'd aslo ask if anyone has a spare H2S blister off a Lanc, as one of those maybe modifiable to fit. I suspect one of these will be a spare on some Lanc kits clear sprue. eg http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/reviews/kits/airfixa09007reviewmd_1.htm Airfix Dambuster special, note the clear sprue, surplus H2S dome this is a shot of BU-E from - http://www.214squadron.org.uk/crews_and_losses_fortress_m.htm As I said, try making one, you'll either succeed, or not, if not, I'll bet you learned something from trying! It's a fairly simple shape, that would 'smash mould' well from clear sheet. You may want to start a new thread or search up your options as to the best B-17in 1/72 nd. One final B-17 E/F/G detail they had two types of tail turret, the longer one, and the Cheyenne shorter unit fitted on G's. cheers T 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Another great book on 214 Sqdn - "A thousand shall fall" by Murray Peden who flew Stirling and Boeings with 214. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 One of our own BM members built one afew years ago. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234912730-fortress-mk-iii/ Also there's 7 or 8 copies of the Martin Streetly book listed on Ebay,just bought a copy myself to replace the one i lent out years ago and never got back Hi amazon and abe are usually pretty good for prices i got a copy last week for $10 inc shipping from the US to Cdn cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungo1974 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) The copy i picked up off Ebay yesterday was only £9.95 Buy it now/ Free postage Hi amazon and abe are usually pretty good for prices i got a copy last week for $10 inc shipping from the US to Cdn cheers jerry Edited March 10, 2015 by mungo1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) DOH! Thanks Wez, Not paying attention!!! I missed the '72' in the decal description. At least the actual info about the planes wasn't cobblers. I hope! I was thinking 1/48th Edge, sorry, I don't know much about 1/72nd B-17's, though the Revell B-17 is supposed to have issues.this is a shot of BU-E from - http://www.214squadron.org.uk/crews_and_losses_fortress_m.htm As I said, try making one, you'll either succeed, or not, if not, I'll bet you learned something from trying! It's a fairly simple shape, that would 'smash mould' well from clear sheet. You may want to start a new thread or search up your options as to the best B-17in 1/72 nd. One final B-17 E/F/G detail they had two types of tail turret, the longer one, and the Cheyenne shorter unit fitted on G's. cheers T Well I certainly learned something about B-17 nose transparencies and how to tell them apart. Another gotcha with B-17's is the waist gun positions, staggered or not. You certainly need to be able to equate the original USAAF serial number to production location and batch. The biggest criticism of the Revell kit is AFAIK, the surface detail particularly around the nose which is quite deep. Thanks for the picture of BU-E and the link. Another great book on 214 Sqdn - "A thousand shall fall" by Murray Peden who flew Stirling and Boeings with 214. Cheers! Thanks for the heads-up on that one, I'll look it up. Wez Edited March 10, 2015 by Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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