P-51D Mustang - Interior Colour Question

[Tiger331]

Folks,

Please forgive me if this question as already been asked/answered but I am getting a little confused over interior colors for the P-51D Mustang in USAAF Service. I'm building the 1:32 scale Tamiya kit for which the instructions advise me to paint everything (cockpit, gun bays, undercarriage bays etc) in the 'Interior Green' color utilizing 2 x parts Yellow to 1 x part Green…..yet….other builds I have seen here and elsewhere, including in the 'How to model the Tamiya Mustang' by ADH publications, show examples of the aircraft with an Interior Green cockpit but other areas (notably gun and undercarriage bays) finished in Zinc Chromate Yellow…..Are both types of interior schemes correct and its dependent on where/when the aircraft was manufactured or has someone (i.e. Tamiya amongst others) got it seriously wrong ?. I know it can be a minefield when manufacturers start basing their kits/data on preserved examples but it would be very helpful to know what is correct…..I have loads of P-51 references but all seem to offer contradictory info which is not helpful either.

Cheers

Mark

[JOAN]

Mark,

Actually more than two colours were found inside P-51D during restorations. According to Mike Vadeboncoeur ( MidWest Aero ) the best restorer of P-51D, several tones of protective paints were used. You can find an interview here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHvRQ4QtSI

and the site of MidWest here with tons of pics here : http://midwestaero.com/site/Photo_Gallery/Photo_Gallery.html

The cockpit paint ref is ANA611 ( not a primer though ) with primer FS33481 zinc chromate primer type 1 yellow ( for exposed areas ) and FS 34258 zinc chromate primer type 2 tint ( overall inside primer ).

The main gear bay have no paint on top/wing surface but a transluscent protective coating.

Check MidWest "Happy Jack go Buggy"'s resoration here :

http://midwestaero.com/site/Photo_Gallery/Pages/Happy_Jacks_Go_Buggy.html#46

The restoration is 100% perfect as original.

cheers

olivier

[Rabbit Leader]

Thanks for posting this video and web links.

In reviving this often discussed topic (to my eye!) there is nothing close to Zinc Chromate Yellow in any of these restored Mustang wheel wells or other parts of the interior. I'm happy to accept that these chaps certainly know what there talking about, however I would say we have a combination of standard US Interior Green in the cockpit and what appears to be an almost Lime colouring for most other internal components and wheel wells.

This might sound rather daft, however I reckon that the new-ish Humbrol #36 Pastel Green would be an adequate match to the colouring depicted in these resortations. If these are indeed accurate - then I'm now more confused than ever.

Note - I've got a tin of this stuff and the actual paint looks nothing like the image shown on Humbrol's website. http://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/catalog/product/view/_ignore_category/1/id/884/

Cheers.. Dave.

[John]

In case anyone hasn't seen Humbrol 36:

The standard chip is from BS4800, which is the closest match I could find from the standards I had to hand.

John

[Seawinder]

On the topic of wheel well colors, here are a couple of quotes. The first is from Christian A., an established Mustang maven:

"The aluminum painted wells theory (for P-51Ds) is based on one or two pictures. While these pix show this had been done on some aircrafts I don't think they reflect the factory finish. Wells on P-51B/Cs were left unpainted except for the main wing spar (ZC). It appears this remained the case for early P-51Ds. Starting with the P-51D-20 production block the wells were entirely coated with ZC. All the factory footages show late Mustangs, mostly P-51D-25s and 30s (even a few Hs), so they have a ZC finish. They were not painted beyond that."

The second is from Dana Bell, whose credentials are well established:

"In 1942, before the Merlin-engined Mustangs entered production, North American was granted permission to build Mustangs without interior primers as a means of speeding production. The main wing spars were generally primed with a single coat of yellow zinc chromate to protect the alloy spar itself, to avoid dissimilar metal corrosion in the areas where the spar contacted the inner faces of the aluminum skin, and to reduce static electricity buildup on the aft face of the spar (where the main tanks were located). There is a chance that some early Bs and Cs were delivered with unpainted spars, but I've never found more than a slight possibility of that having occurred.

"As part of the cost- and time-savings measures, all other non-cockpit interior areas were left in unpainted aluminum finish. Since there were several grades of aluminum present, this led to corrosion issues on the Mustang, and at some point (I've not been able to pin down a date or place in production) wheel wells began to appear in overall yellow zinc chromate. I know for sure that this happened late in P-51D production ... If, for any reason, a second coat of primer was applied to the wheel well, it would have been green zinc chromate (by that time, the same as Interior Green). I haven't seen evidence of that during WWII, but it could have happened."

Based on the above, for a P-51D, it'll most likely be either unpainted wells with Yellow Zinc Chromate for the spar (early) or overall YZC (late).

[Tourist]

Thank you Seawinder for posting some of my previous comments about the wheel wells finish but new information has come up since I wrote them.

From the very beginning Mustangs wheel wells were a mix of Yellow Zinc Chromate, tinted/Green ZC, Interior Green, Dull Dark Green and unfinished (Aluminum) parts.
From Allison Mustangs to F-82's the evidence (factory and field pictures, finish specs, T.O.'s, footage etc...) shows that Mustangs didn't usually get a single unified color finish in the wheel wells.
I do not include Commonwealth Allisons in this list as it seems the RAF repainted the wells in silver, Colin Ford or others can probably tell us more.
Throughout the Mustang production the main spar was finished with YZC or IG, the ribs could also be YZC or left unpainted, the separation wall between the two wells was often IG or unpainted, the wing skin forming the ceiling were YZC or unpainted, the stringers were often YZC, some small bracket were GZC or DDG etc...

Basically it is not simple, all of this evolved and these colors could "move around" between the various parts of the wells.

As long as minimum anti-corrosion guidelines were (somewhat) followed it didn't matter much what color went were, it seems to have been a matter of production convenience.

It is important to note that as production advanced so would the amount of protective colors in the wheel wells, a P-51D-5 had a lot more unfinished parts than a P-51D-30.
To complicate things even more the wells were finished asymmetrically starting (possibly) with the P-51D-20NA.
In conclusion, a single unified color finish in the wells is mostly a post war thing though it is possible that the last block(s) of Dallas built P-51D's had a full coat of YZC in the wells.
Also, one or two period pictures seem to show a full silver finish in a P-51K-5, did some of these earlier blocks receive this finish? Was this specific aircraft repainted for some reason?
Clearly some questions remain unanswered but that the gist of the current thinking on Mustang wheel wells.

The cockpit was of course painted IG as indicated by Tamiya.

[Rabbit Leader]

Thanks to those who have contributed with detailed analysis above. It's certainly is one of those topics with probably no definitive answer.

Now for the unscientific record - I've just applied Humbrol 36 Pastel Green to my 1/72 Tamiya Mustang straight from the tin // Result = Way too Green (think Granny Smith Apples)

Then I made a couple of home brews.

1.Base Coat -

Humbrol Authentic Zinc Chromate Primer (long OOP), so choose a good alternative.

Mix -

Model Master Interior Green / somewhere between 4-6 drops

Result -

YZC with a pale green tinge (no surprises really).

2. Base Coat -

Humbrol 36 Pastel Green .

Mix -

Humbrol Authentic Zinc Chromate Primer / somewhere between 8-10 drops

Result -

Apple Green, however the stark brightness of the original Humbrol 36 is obviously reduced with the YZC mix.

Of the two, option 1. (IMO) is the best looking shade applied to the model, although the second mix really looks close to what you find in these restored examples.

Dare I say, is the modern equivalent of ZC (green tinge) altogether different to what we believe was applied in WW2??

Anyway - as I said, not Rocket science, however (to my tired eyes) this was a beneficial exercise.

Cheers... Dave

Edited April 22, 2015 by Rabbit Leader

[Seawinder]

How about doing it basically the way the Americans did it? Start with the Humbrol ZC (yellow) and add some black.

[Rabbit Leader]

How about doing it basically the way the Americans did it? Start with the Humbrol ZC (yellow) and add some black.

Your probably right... that would have been a better starting point? I might tackle this mix as well.

I suppose initially, I had doubts that this would have given me the same shade of Green as seen in these restored examples.

I still believe that the Green shade that we see being applied today (as per Mid West Aero's restored examples), may not be what was applied way back in the 40's.

Note - this is pure speculation of my behalf and I'm only commenting on what I am seeing and am happy to be shot down in flames if proved incorrect.

Cheers.. Dave