1/New Kinetic Mirage IIIE/R - right kit for building a Swiss Mirage III RS?

[WildeSau75]

Hi guys,

I am wondering if the new Kinetic 1/48 Mirage III E/R kit can be built into a Swiss Mirage III RS machine.

I am not sure which - visible - differences the Swiss Mirage IIIRS had compared to the standard R machine.

Probably will get a book about the Swiss Mirage but it's costing USD 100.- and I spent already too much for kits lately - my girlfriend will kill me ;-).

Any help would be appreciated.

TIA.

Cheers,

Michael

[Gary West]

I believe the answer is yes - I am building this kit right now. I'm building a IIIRD and the only thing Ive noticed so far is that the one piece underside has built in cannons for the E model, so need removing for all R models.

Typical Kinetic though, parts, parts and more parts

[exdraken]

nose landing gear is different (longer)

later RS had canards

I thing the recce windows are also slightly different!

sorry, in french only:

http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=86062&hilit=runt

and more detailed

english and french

http://replic.canalblog.com/archives/2006/05/22/1928841.html

Edited March 4, 2015 by exdraken

[Don McIntyre]

There were some amazing (IMHO) inflight Mirage IIIRS photos on airliners.net that are well worth checking out. If nothing else, check them out for inspiration.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=Mirage+IIIRS&range=&sort_order=photo_id+asc&page_limit=120&thumbnails=noinfo

Also airfighter.com:

http://www.airfighters.com/photosearch.php?cra=2955&for=229&lim=5&dis=thumbs

Edited March 4, 2015 by Don McIntyre

[WildeSau75]

There were some amazing (IMHO) inflight Mirage IIIRS photos on airliners.net that are well worth checking out. If nothing else, check them out for inspiration.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=Mirage+IIIRS&range=&sort_order=photo_id+asc&page_limit=120&thumbnails=noinfo

Also airfighter.com:

http://www.airfighters.com/photosearch.php?cra=2955&for=229&lim=5&dis=thumbs

Thanks a lot Don - lovely pics.

Cheers,

Michael

[WildeSau75]

nose landing gear is different (longer)

later RS had canards

I thing the recce windows are also slightly different!

sorry, in french only:

http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=86062&hilit=runt

and more detailed

english and french

http://replic.canalblog.com/archives/2006/05/22/1928841.html

this helps a lot - thanks. really appreciate your help.

you wouldn't know how much longer the nose landing gear was and what the difference on the recce windows do look like?

Cheers,

Michael

[WildeSau75]

I believe the answer is yes - I am building this kit right now. I'm building a IIIRD and the only thing Ive noticed so far is that the one piece underside has built in cannons for the E model, so need removing for all R models.

Typical Kinetic though, parts, parts and more parts

thanks Gary - good luck with your build.

Cheers,

Michael

[exdraken]

this helps a lot - thanks. really appreciate your help.

you wouldn't know how much longer the nose landing gear was and what the difference on the recce windows do look like?

Cheers,

Michael

recce windows: not exactly, compare yourself:, maybe the kinetic ones are fine for you!

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/401-500/walk411_MirageIII_Bob_Verhegghen/walk411.htm

nose leg extension :according to the above website: 28 or 30cm

Mirage IIIRS- reco : (18 appareils livrés,R-2101/ R-2118)

Mirage IIIRS- recon : (18 aircrafts, white coded from R-2101 to R-2118)

1. cockpit réaménagé pour tenir compte du système de tir américain .
2. modification du train avant (niveau de la fourche), du caisson et de la trappe (+ 28 cm)
3. ajout de 4 ferrures à la jonction aile-fuselage pour suspension dans les cavernes.

1. cockpit lay out different for the US TARAN radar system

2. Forward gear leg extended (+ 30 cm) , as gear door and bay

3. 4 hooks bolded on wing roots (2 each side , to hing the aircraft in the shelters).

[WildeSau75]

recce windows: not exactly, compare yourself:, maybe the kinetic ones are fine for you!

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/401-500/walk411_MirageIII_Bob_Verhegghen/walk411.htm

nose leg extension :according to the above website: 28 or 30cm

Mirage IIIRS- reco : (18 appareils livrés,R-2101/ R-2118)

Mirage IIIRS- recon : (18 aircrafts, white coded from R-2101 to R-2118)

1. cockpit réaménagé pour tenir compte du système de tir américain .
2. modification du train avant (niveau de la fourche), du caisson et de la trappe (+ 28 cm)
3. ajout de 4 ferrures à la jonction aile-fuselage pour suspension dans les cavernes.

1. cockpit lay out different for the US TARAN radar system

2. Forward gear leg extended (+ 30 cm) , as gear door and bay

3. 4 hooks bolded on wing roots (2 each side , to hing the aircraft in the shelters).

Hi exdraken, I think we could chat in German (guess you are Austrian, right?) but since we are on Britmodeller, let's stick to English.

Thanks a lot for your reply - that helps a lot. I missed that these information where in the link you sent - sorry for that.

It seems that not a whole lot of changes are required to make a Swiss Mirage IIIRS out of the new Kinetic kit. Even the camera nose seems to be right (there are two coming in the Kinetic kit and one seems to be the one the IIIRS was equipped with.

I hope you won't feel disturbed in case I come back with another one or two questions about the Swiss Mirage - you seem to know a whole lot about it.

Are you building the new Kinetic kit as well?

Merci viel mal und Grüsse aus der Schweiz.

Michael

[exdraken]

Hallo Michael,

no disturbance at all!

that's what a forum is all about, no?

unluckily I still do not have the new Kinetic kit, so I am not able to judge the recce windows in it

some years ago I built one though, see here:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234917797-mirage-iiirs-148/?hl=%2Bmirage+%2Biiirs

photos could be better, maybe some days I do new ones

I used the nose of the Academy Recce Mirage as base, which is underscale and wrong for a RS

Schöne Grüße aus Graz!

Werner

[IotaChiTau]

Hi there, Gruezi und Servus!

Have you seen the bigger photos on http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kin/kit_kin_48050.shtml or on http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/80492-148-Dassault-Mirage-IIIE-Kinetic?

Other good resources are: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/mirageiiisrm_1.htm and http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/swissmirageiiirm_2.htm

I am thinking about the same project and after a comparison with http://replic.canalblog.com/archives/2006/05/22/1928841.html I believe the new Kinetic kit will be a very good starting point.

A picture analysis from nose to tail:

+ There is a mid-bulbous nose cone looking about right for a IIIS, french IIIE have a wider nose (Cyrano radar - really, no pun intended), Mirage 5 variants have a really narrow cone without a radar inside

- The strakes for the IIIS nose cone seem to be missing

+ One of the camera clear parts looks rather good. I think it is the one without the round window, compare this image: http://www.fliegerstaffel10.ch/include.php?path=galerie_pic&pid=79

+ There seems to be the correct antenna under the cockpit

+ There are four different instrument panels, two look correct for the IIIS and IIIRS

+ The nose gear well goes back as far as the aft end of the gun ports - correct for the longer-legged swiss Mirage

+ Two different nose gear doors, a shorter and a longer one are provided

+ The tiny antenna on the nose gear door is there

+ There are two nose wheel forks, a short and a longer one - that is why the leg is longer

+ The gun ports have the rather massive flash suppressors

+ On the right intake there is a recesss, it might be for the clear part of the air policing light

+ The canards seem to be the smaller kind and they have the tiny vortex generators - both correct for swiss mirages

+ Under the wingtips there are the cucumber-shaped RWR sensors

+ There are Sidewinder AAMs with correctly shaped canards and launchers for them, but for modernized Mirage IIIS another variant (AIM-9L) must be found elsewhere

- The four eyelets (to lift the aircaft) near the wing root seem to be missing

- The main wheels are rather weakly detailed

+ There are several variants of vertical rudder top with different RWR antennae, one looks right for a swiss Mirage

+ A part for the chaff/flare dispenser under the tail is in the kit

To summarize: A nice kit with a few weak points, a big step toward many nice Mirage models. As always we should expect some wrongly sized parts and errors nobody really understands. OTOH, so many detail parts are well represented, so why bitch?

Lovely decals are/were available from the swiss company MC one.

If only Tarangus' Viggen were as well made as Kinetic's Mirage III....

Pfüat Eich! Bye bye!

Edited March 6, 2015 by IotaChiTau

[Gary West]

later RS had canards

I thing the recce windows are also slightly different!

Both included in the kit

[exdraken]

Hi there, Gruezi und Servus!

Have you seen the bigger photos on http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kin/kit_kin_48050.shtml or on http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/80492-148-Dassault-Mirage-IIIE-Kinetic?

Other good resources are: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/mirageiiisrm_1.htm and http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/swissmirageiiirm_2.htm

I am thinking about the same project and after a comparison with http://replic.canalblog.com/archives/2006/05/22/1928841.html I believe the new Kinetic kit will be a very good starting point.

A picture analysis from nose to tail:

+ There is a mid-bulbous nose cone looking about right for a IIIS, french IIIE have a wider nose (Cyrano radar - really, no pun intended), Mirage 5 variants have a really narrow cone without a radar inside

+ There are Sidewinder AAMs with correctly shaped canards and launchers for them, but for modernized Mirage IIIS another variant (AIM-9L) must be found elsewhere

Pfüat Eich! Bye bye!

Cool! I did not look at the spues in that detail yet!

but all your points eem to be valid! good news for Swiss Mirages!

I am not too sure about the radom provided in the kit, lets see

Swiss MIrages used the Aim-9P, not the L! that is still true for the F-5 Tigers and Hornets (which now mainly use the Aim-9X)

[WildeSau75]

Hi there, Gruezi und Servus!

Have you seen the bigger photos on http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kin/kit_kin_48050.shtml or on http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/80492-148-Dassault-Mirage-IIIE-Kinetic?

Other good resources are: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/mirageiiisrm_1.htm and http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/swissmirageiiirm_2.htm

I am thinking about the same project and after a comparison with http://replic.canalblog.com/archives/2006/05/22/1928841.html I believe the new Kinetic kit will be a very good starting point.

A picture analysis from nose to tail:

+ There is a mid-bulbous nose cone looking about right for a IIIS, french IIIE have a wider nose (Cyrano radar - really, no pun intended), Mirage 5 variants have a really narrow cone without a radar inside

- The strakes for the IIIS nose cone seem to be missing

+ One of the camera clear parts looks rather good. I think it is the one without the round window, compare this image: http://www.fliegerstaffel10.ch/include.php?path=galerie_pic&pid=79

+ There seems to be the correct antenna under the cockpit

+ There are four different instrument panels, two look correct for the IIIS and IIIRS

+ The nose gear well goes back as far as the aft end of the gun ports - correct for the longer-legged swiss Mirage

+ Two different nose gear doors, a shorter and a longer one are provided

+ The tiny antenna on the nose gear door is there

+ There are two nose wheel forks, a short and a longer one - that is why the leg is longer

+ The gun ports have the rather massive flash suppressors

+ On the right intake there is a recesss, it might be for the clear part of the air policing light

+ The canards seem to be the smaller kind and they have the tiny vortex generators - both correct for swiss mirages

+ Under the wingtips there are the cucumber-shaped RWR sensors

+ There are Sidewinder AAMs with correctly shaped canards and launchers for them, but for modernized Mirage IIIS another variant (AIM-9L) must be found elsewhere

- The four eyelets (to lift the aircaft) near the wing root seem to be missing

- The main wheels are rather weakly detailed

+ There are several variants of vertical rudder top with different RWR antennae, one looks right for a swiss Mirage

+ A part for the chaff/flare dispenser under the tail is in the kit

To summarize: A nice kit with a few weak points, a big step toward many nice Mirage models. As always we should expect some wrongly sized parts and errors nobody really understands. OTOH, so many detail parts are well represented, so why bitch?

Lovely decals are/were available from the swiss company MC one.

If only Tarangus' Viggen were as well made as Kinetic's Mirage III....

Pfüat Eich! Bye bye!

Hi Iota (I hope I got your first name identified correctly),

Thanks a lot for your very detailed reply! This helps me and surely others as well who want to build a Swiss Mirage.

It's a lovely bird, isn't it? Elegant, sleek and powerful looking. A true classic.

Robert (Röbi) Schneider from MC One Matterhorn Decals is right now working on a new decal set for the Swiss Mirage IIIS/RS - just rightly timed for the Kinetic kit. They should be available around mid April 2015. His decals are of high quality and definitely worth getting if you want build a Swiss plane. Check out his webpage at http://www.mc-one.ch/Documents/new/new-1.htm where you can order the decals. Please note that I am not in any way connected to mc-one.ch or to Robert Schneider and not have a share in his business. Just a fan of his work.

Cheers,

Michael

[WildeSau75]

Hallo Michael,

no disturbance at all!

that's what a forum is all about, no?

unluckily I still do not have the new Kinetic kit, so I am not able to judge the recce windows in it

some years ago I built one though, see here:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234917797-mirage-iiirs-148/?hl=%2Bmirage+%2Biiirs

photos could be better, maybe some days I do new ones

I used the nose of the Academy Recce Mirage as base, which is underscale and wrong for a RS

Schöne Grüße aus Graz!

Werner

Servus Werner,

Thanks a lot - it's nice to get help by more experienced modellers.

I am sure you will get the Kinetic kit soon, won't you? ;-). Although you showed that one can build a nice RS from the HobyBoss kit as basis - well done! I like it!

Being a newbie, I am happy that the Kinetic kit seems to be well suited to build a IIIRS more or less oob.

Sein's grüsst.

Michael

Cool! I did not look at the spues in that detail yet!

but all your points eem to be valid! good news for Swiss Mirages!

I am not too sure about the radom provided in the kit, lets see

Swiss MIrages used the Aim-9P, not the L! that is still true for the F-5 Tigers and Hornets (which now mainly use the Aim-9X)

Hi Werner,

Do you have a good tip for 1/48 and 1/72 AIM-9P Sidewinders? Didn't find them so far.

Grüsse,

Michael

Both included in the kit

Glad to hear that Gary. Thanks for posting.

Cheers,

Michael

[exdraken]

Do you have a good tip for 1/48 and 1/72 AIM-9P Sidewinders? Didn't find them so far.

1/48:

included in AFV F-5 kits

Hasegawa weapons set C (called AIM-9J there, but should be externally the same! at least the canards are )

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/48364-aircraft-weapons-set-c/

alternatively the old Revell/ Monogram F-5E kit also has some!

1/72: I have no idea, sorry!

Edited March 7, 2015 by exdraken

[WildeSau75]

1/48:

included in AFV F-5 kits

Hasegawa weapons set C (called AIM-9J there, but should be externally the same! at least the canards are )

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/48364-aircraft-weapons-set-c/

alternatively the old Revell/ Monogram F-5E kit also has some!

1/72: I have no idea, sorry!

Hi Werner,

Thanks a lot. Good to know that I can get the AIM-9J from the Hasegawa weapons kit.

Cheers,

Michael

[WildeSau75]

Hi guys,

Thanks to all who provided input for my questions around the Swiss Mirage IIIRS.

Now I have two other questions I hope somebody can help me with.

First, can someone confirm that most S/RS Mirage were once without the later applied Canards but also already in the dark green/grey paint scheme? I would like to build the RS in the dark green/grey scheme but without the Canards. It would be helpful to know if this applies to all RS machines before the upgrade to the versions with the Canards.

And then a question to the external fuel tanks of the IIIRS - did they only carry one type and was this what comes in the new Kinetic kit as super sonic tanks? Wasn't there also a ventral tank for the Swiss Mirage? I saw pics of it on the BS/DS two seater versions - did the RS also carry the ventral tank?

I know, questions over questions again, sorry guys.

I promise I will buy the book about the Swiss Mirage soon ;-).

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 9, 2015 by WildeSau75

[Giorgio N]

All RS were delivered in the dark green /dark grey scheme, so yes, you can build an RS in this scheme without canards

[WildeSau75]

All RS were delivered in the dark green /dark grey scheme, so yes, you can build an RS in this scheme without canards

Thanks Giorgio - then just the IIIS have been delivered in NMF colors first? If so, did they get their later two grey tone paint scheme before getting the canards? Means can also a two grey tone Mirage IIIS be build without canards?

TIA.

Cheers,

Michael

[Giorgio N]

Thanks Giorgio - then just the IIIS have been delivered in NMF colors first? If so, did they get their later two grey tone paint scheme before getting the canards? Means can also a two grey tone Mirage IIIS be build without canards?

TIA.

Cheers,

Michael

Yes, only the III-S and the BS trainers were delivered in NMF. Some single seaters had the two-grey scheme before getting canards and there are some pictures of these around. One such picture can be found here:

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2044/MG_Mirage_III_S_Swiss_Air_Force_J-2315_06.89_SIR_1.jpg

There was another scheme in between, an overall light grey worn by a number of single seaters without canards. I have no idea how widespread or not this was but again there are pictures showing this scheme

[WildeSau75]

Yes, only the III-S and the BS trainers were delivered in NMF. Some single seaters had the two-grey scheme before getting canards and there are some pictures of these around. One such picture can be found here:

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2044/MG_Mirage_III_S_Swiss_Air_Force_J-2315_06.89_SIR_1.jpg

There was another scheme in between, an overall light grey worn by a number of single seaters without canards. I have no idea how widespread or not this was but again there are pictures showing this scheme

Ciao Giorgio,

Thanks a lot - that clarifies the paint scheme question for me. I am a fan of the Swiss Mirage without the canards - they spoil the clean look of the plane - but hey, that's just me.

I guess I will build my 1/72 Mirage IIIS as the J-2315 - the bird from which you just posted the picture.

I wasn't aware of the overall light grey paint scheme - one never stops learning.

I found a nice webpage of which I guess you are aware but here nevertheless the link: http://www.wings-aviation.ch/16-SAF/200-Aircraft/Basis-ac-de.htm

You seem to know a whole lot about the Swiss Mirage - are you Swiss?

Thanks again Giorgio - appreciate your help.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 10, 2015 by WildeSau75

[Giorgio N]

Michael,

actually no, I'm not Swiss but Italian. I live some 40 minutes from the Ticino border and Lugano and surroundings are an area I know pretty well (always a good destination for a saturday afternoon too), but I'm only a neighbour

I'm really not an expert on the Swiss Mirages, although I'm trying to learn as much as I can on the Mirage III family at the moment. They make for beautiful modelling subjects !

[WildeSau75]

Michael,

actually no, I'm not Swiss but Italian. I live some 40 minutes from the Ticino border and Lugano and surroundings are an area I know pretty well (always a good destination for a saturday afternoon too), but I'm only a neighbour

I'm really not an expert on the Swiss Mirages, although I'm trying to learn as much as I can on the Mirage III family at the moment. They make for beautiful modelling subjects !

Ciao Giorgio, it's a beautiful area where you life. We have friends near of Milano and like it everytime we can pay them a visit.

Yes, the Mirage III is a very nice plane - looking forward to get the book about the Swiss Mirage III which seems to include all one wants to know.

Have a nice day.

Ciao,

Michael

[Giorgio N]

Michael,

next time you are around Milan give me a shout then, we can arrange a visit to a few places of interest for modellers, including a couple of good bars...