Spitfire MK.Va use

[phat trev]

Can anyone help with listing the RAF units to use the Spitfire Mk.Va

Most images and references show D-B (Douglas Baders aircraft) but surely more squadrons had them?

[greatgonzo]

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p011.html

[Kjetil Åkra]

Can´t help with a list, but I know 331 (N) Sqd. had a few of them, including some Mk Is converted to Mk V standard but still with 8 .303 guns making them Vas. There are photos of some in Cato Gunhfeldt´s "Spitfire saga".

Kjetil

[gingerbob]

I'll attempt a broad summation:

May '41 64 Sqn gets some but pass them on to 603; 611 and 54 also get them by the end of the month.

These three squadrons use them more or less excusively for a month or two. (Rochford/Hornchurch)

July: 611 hands theirs off to 145 Sqn (who also have some Vbs), and they in turn hand off to 41 Sqn near the end of the month. 603 is also beginning to receive Vbs.

August: 54 Sqn trades aircraft with 403 while the former are on an APC or something like that- they trade back afterward. By the end of August it is likely that, while Vas are still on hand with these squadrons, most ops are being flown on Vbs. (There are a handful of operational losses after August, though.)

Most of the aircraft for what I've summarized above were built as Vas. From now on, it is a mix of "built" Vas and converted I/IIs, very loosely half and half initially, with the "true" Vas dwindling over time.

There's a bit of shuffling about from October (130, 145, 124 Sqns) but

by January '42 Vas are more-or-less only being used by 133, 81, and 332 Sqns.

In April '42 all three passed their aircraft on to new-formed squadrons 421, 165, and 164 respectively (it isn't quite this cut and dry, but that's the basic trend). Only 164 seem to have kept them for any length of time (165 handed off to 167, another new squadron, in May, and I think that they too only kept Vas for a month or so.)

In Sept '42 164 passed to 602, making them the only squadron so equipped. They were gone either in Nov (some passed to 82nd FG USAAF) or around the end of the year.

(Very quick check shows approximately 81 Mk.Is and 51 Mk.IIas converted to Va, not counting those that were converted to PR types. 93 (or somewhere around there) were delivered from Supermarine as Vas.)

bob

Edited March 6, 2015 by gingerbob

[Kjetil Åkra]

Interesting information from Bob. Now that he mentioned 332 Sqd. I remembered the photos I am thinking of was from that Sqd., not 331, but they were Mk Vas converted from early Mk Is and was only used for a brief time, I believe. The two serials and codes I´ve found so far are:

K9825 AH-Z

L1031 AH-S

The latter is particularly interesting from a modelling point of view as the rear part of the aircraft has the old DE/DG camouflage whereas the cowling has the new Ocen grey colour. There are also lots of evidence of repainting and repairs on this airframe.

Kjetil

Edited March 2, 2015 by Kjetil Åkra

[Dave Fleming]

In Sept '42 164 passed to 602, making them the only squadron so equipped. They were gone either in Nov (some passed to 82nd FG USAAF) or by the end of the year.

602 had them until January 1943. Hadn't realised they came from 164, but of coure 602 would have picked them up when they moved to Sumburgh and Skaebrae.

Don't recall ever seeing a picture of one.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Dave Fleming

[gingerbob]

Thanks Kjetil, I did have 332 as using some but not 331, so you had me worried! After the early months, their service was generally in the quieter areas, and also (as touched on in my post) as a stepping stone for new or converting squadrons, prior to getting Vbs for "real" operational use.

Dave, thanks for the additional info. Some of my hedging is because:

1) it is hard to tell sometimes when aircraft have really left a unit, if they're not getting handed en masse to the next unit

2) sometimes the dates or details of a change are not very clear/ failed to get recorded

Also, while it is common for one squadron to hand off to another, either when moving or when re-equipping, there are numerous cases where a number, but not the whole group, get handed off- say 6-8 aircraft. In some cases this is (for example) trading Vas for Vbs, but other times it isn't clear why it was done.

bob

p.s. I had to take my daughter to school, and my wife commandeered the laptop- I don't have all my Spitfire info on this work/desktop computer. So, haven't yet had the chance to analyze the conversions.

[Dave Fleming]

The mk Vas seem to have been on station rather than belonging to the Squadron - same with the mk Vcs and HFVIs.

[Graham Boak]

Later, Mk.Vs were kept at Sumburgh and Skaebrae (and other stations away from the more active areas) with only the squadron personnel rotating for rest periods. Mk.IXs were left behind in the South for replacement units and their active period. I hadn't realised that this practice went back to Mk.Vb frontline/Mk.Va secondary.

The HF Mk.VIs and VIIs are perhaps slightly different in that they eventually became a separate Station Flight, using the codes from an earlier Czech unit despite the late existence of Australian and RAuxAF units. So from the time of the Australians (at least) they were regarded as something separate from the squadron organisation, although any practical separation must have been minimal.

[gingerbob]

I'm not sure about something like Skaebrae [wandering off a bit, but can anyone definitively clear up Skaebrae vs. Skeabrae? I've seen it both ways, and even searching by spelling turns up parallel realities!]- Yes, there was at times the "Station Flight", and certainly there were permanent resident aircraft that were assumed by each visiting squadron in turn, but I do get the sense that (at least in some cases) after a while they just stopped bothering to record/report/consider these "changes of ownership". I've never seen any particular statement of policy change, which of course doesn't imply that such doesn't exist.

Yes, Graham, it was a pattern that Mk.IIs got the hot areas and the Mk.Is retired to the quieter areas, and then the Vbs (with a certain amount of IIb and Va participation during 1941), and then the IXs. I'm not really sure after that, but the whole situation was different by that time!

bob

[Graham Boak]

Having driven past it, I should know, but I can't find the map I used in Orkney. The references I can find that call it Skeabrae are Google, Streetmap, Smith (Action Stations), Sturtivant and Rawlings. Jefford differs. The Aviation Research Group Orkney Shetland use Skeabrae: I think the local guys probably know best.

[Dave Fleming]

I'm not sure about something like Skaebrae [wandering off a bit, but can anyone definitively clear up Skaebrae vs. Skeabrae? I've seen it both ways, and even searching by spelling turns up parallel realities!]-

Argos suggest it's Skeabrae

http://www.crashsiteorkney.com/page8.htm

My earlier spelling was a typo...:-)

To give 602 as an example (because I know them best!) they were on Spitfire mk Vbs from July 1941 to October 1943, but when they deployed to first Peterhead, then Orkney and Shetland, they also used the Va and HFVI. At that point, the 'station' aircraft seemed to transfer to the Squadron. When they went back to Skeabrae in early 1944, they left their mk IX behind, and moved to LFVbs (whch did transfer) but the mk VIIs stayed on the station flight (which had adopted the DU codes)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Dave Fleming

[Kjetil Åkra]

Just wanted to add that there were quite a few Mk Vas in 332 Sqd. (around 10). All seem to have been converted airframes, though. And all are documented with serials and codes.

Kjetil

[gingerbob]

OK, I've updated my initial "summary" post above. Turns out that I HAD taken into account the conversions, in addition to the "built as" Vas.

bob

Edited March 6, 2015 by gingerbob