Hurricane IId in SEAC service

[johnd]

Hi,

does anyone know when the Hurricane IId was in service with South East Asia Command? In particular, had they been withdrawn by the time the white wing stripes appeared in January 1945?

Thanks,

John.

[Graham Boak]

I believe so: by then the Mk.IV was in use in both rocket-firing and 40mm forms. I don't know a final date for the use of the Mk.IId, but 1945 appears very late indeed.

John Rawlings, in Fighter Squadrons of the RAF, describes 20 Sq's A Flight as converting to RP/Mk.IVs in November 1944, the rest of the unit continuing with Mk.IIds. However the last two serials in his list of Mk.IIds are Mk.IVs. I think it likelier that the unit re-equipped completely at the end of 1944. So January 1945 isn't completely unlikely for a Mk.IId, but...

EDIT: but read lower down.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

I believe 20 Sqn had IID on strength (together with IV which they got in December 1944 according to Jefford) until September 1945. Whether those were real IID or aircraft which had been modified to IV standard and fitted with 40mm I couldn't say but the squadron had to temporarily suspend IV ops from 25 Jan 1945 because it had exhausted stocks of RPs.

On 12 Feb 45 it attacked Japanese armour reportedly with both IID and IV Hurris and at the end of that month operations were split with IVs operating against river transport and IIDs against road transport.

During March 1945 the Squadron flew 906.5 operational hours in 562 day and 4 night sorties, fired 7,093 rounds of 40mm ammunition, 106,814 rounds of .303 ammunition, 912 60lb RP's and 6 25lb RP's. The night sorties were made by the Squadron Harvard dropping empty bottles in 'jitter' raids, numbers of bottles dropped unknown.

Code letter and serial combinations for some of the IID aircraft operated by the Squadron were KW757 'Z', KW802 'G', KW863 'P', KW687 'Z', KW874 'X', KX229 'H', KX249 'N', KX294 'N', KX421 'G', KX469 'X', LD498 'W', LD789 'N' and LD435 'B'.

Unfortunately I don't have code letter and serial combinations for the Hurricane IV but serials of those aircraft included KW809, LD101, LD447, LD569, LD572, LD608, LD796, LF101, LF107, LF110, LF111, LF113, LF433, LF435, LF481, LF494, LF502, LF569, LF593 & LF594.

Others can perhaps tie up the serials with service life and disposals to confirm.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Most of the Mk.IV serials listed are either 20 Sq (eg LD572) or 151 OTU (eg LF101), or often just FE (eg LD569), in the Air Britain serials books, with write-off dates from December 1944 onwards. There are a few outriders who are recorded elsewhere. One on South Africa (LD435), one in Russia (LF494), one in the UK (KW809), one a Mk.IIc (LD435 again), or with other units (LD101 with 42 Sq). The most interesting might be LD447, which was with 20 Sq but written off 1.6.44. Perhaps the wrong year, given the rest of the evidence?

Of the quoted Mk.IId serials LD489 is a 20 Sq. Mk.IV, LD789 a 42 Sq Mk.IV, and LD435 makes its third appearance... it is describes as serving with the Specialised Low Attack Instructors School (I) - presumably India? - but transferring to the SAAF 31.5.44. I suspect KX294 is a transposition of KX249, as the former went to Russia. There is no KW687 - 867 fits. KW874 is described as being with 20 Sq but a Mk.IIc (I suspect that's an error).

Ah, the joys of incomplete and/or doubtful evidence.

PS They wouldn't have modified a Mk.IId to Mk.IV standards, as there are considerable differences. I dare say they could, given enough time and effort, but why bother, with new aircraft arriving from the UK and the old ones going back to OTUs? I have wondered whether later production Mk.IIs might have been built (or later refitted) with the more powerful engine of the Mk.IV, but I can't recall seeing any suggestion of this.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

20 Sqn got their IID aircraft in March 1943 according to Jefford so that 1.6.44 date is probably correct. Sorry if the reference to them getting Mk IV in Dec 44 confused.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

LD447 is listed as a 20 Sq Mk.IV, which is why the doubt over the date. 42 Sq is recorded with Mk.IVs in this period - eg LD446. It is possible that the Mk.IVs arrived earlier with 20 Sq and it was specifically the RP-equipped ones that appeared at the end of the year, but the sources do seem quite definite otherwise.

The last Mk.IId I can find was KX469 ('470 and '471 being lost at sea as with other late aircraft of this variant) which was with 20 Sq when it hit a mast during a dummy attack off Madras and crashed into the sea 28.7.45. Which does confirm their use in 20 Sq after the introduction of the white bands, and is included in your list as X, so I think that satisfies the initial request?

[johnd]

Thank you, I am satisfied! I now don't have to remove the white bands I put on while my brain was in neutral. The only thing I don't have is a serial number / aircraft letter combination that is known to be valid.

Cheers, guys.

John.

[Graham Boak]

KX469/X, which Nick provided. What you don't know is whether the single code letter was carried before or aft of the roundel. I suspect there are a few photos of 20 Sq around, though I can't place any at the moment. The other question is whether the spinner would have been any colour other than Dark Earth: in 1945 the Spitfire units were using different coloured spinners to distinguish themselves, but I don't know that this was true of the surviving Hurricane units.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

I have a photo of the starboard side of a Mk IV 'G' in March 1945. Code letter is aft of roundel and it has what appears to be a white spinner. The bands on the top of the wings and tailplanes appear toned down or painted over. It has the fin band and tail flash.

Also copies of pages from a 20 Sqn logbook record IID ops up to May 1945 when the pilot went on convalescent leave. Serials but unfortunately no code letters. At the start of the book only the last three digits of the serials are recorded. For February 1945 the pilot pasted a photo of a IID into the log book endorsed "The Old IID" but the aircraft appears to be in Day Fighter scheme with European roundels and could have been cut from a magazine or similar. The serial ?Z198 does not appear in the logbook.

There are some photos of 20 Sqn personnel and Mk IV Hurricanes at the Australian War Memorial site but they don't reveal much. A personal reminiscence of the Squadron at the BBC People’s War site recalls that "Some of our planes had two 40mm cannon fitted, one under each wing, replacing the 20mm cannon with which the rest were fitted" which is a bit mysterious!

Nick

[Troy Smith]

in this thread

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1500.0

a link to AWM site was posted

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02135/

between 00:08 - 00:20 there is Hurricane 'X' HV874 (apparently readable on the high res version)

A quick check says HV874 was part of a batch of IIB, IIC, IID, versions.

the plane has full SEAC stripes.

Not sure if the stripes are white or 'India White'

There is also in the IWM collection film of 20 Sq,

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234954157-hurricane-iid-20-squadron-anyone-seen-the-film/

though if this is a still, it's before the SEAC stripes

Finally - http://alternathistory.org.ua/ispytano-v-sssr-istrebitel-shturmovik-hawker-hurricane-iid

posted in the Sovietwarplanes thread, has a lot of detail shots of the IID I've not seen anywhere else!

eg firing button, note this plane, KX305 is grey-green tube work inside

also note at least some IID's got armoured radiators

[Graham Boak]

HV874 Mk.IId: 7 SAAF, 21 Ferry Control. Stalled off turn and crashed Mauripur 25.3.44.

HW874 Mk.IId: 20 Sq, 21 Ferry Control. Spun into ground, Mauripur 25.3.44.

Take your pick. One of them is wrong, I suggest.

I have seen comment elsewhere that at least some 1945 Hurricane squadrons overpainted the white bands on the uppersurfaces because of their low-level operations.

EDIT Which suggests that there was a time when they were carried.

White bands not "India White" or pale blue. Which is perhaps a bit of a shame.

KZ198, a Mk.IIc, went to Russia

Edited February 26, 2015 by Graham Boak

[gingerbob]

For February 1945 the pilot pasted a photo of a IID into the log book endorsed "The Old IID" but the aircraft appears to be in Day Fighter scheme with European roundels and could have been cut from a magazine or similar. The serial ?Z198 does not appear in the logbook.

I wonder if it is KZ193, which was a development Mk.IV (also Mk.V for a time)- you can find photos on line and in books. That would fit with your supposition that it might just be a "representative" photo.

In Birtles' "Hurricane -The Illustrated History" (where the above appears on p.43) there's also a photo captioned 20 Sqn (p.195 -Edit: but also now shown above- Troy got sneaky!) showing two aircraft flying from right to left along a beach. 'G' is leading and it looks like 'C' behind. Both have dark spinners. I can't see any stripes, so the photo might predate that.

bob

Edited February 26, 2015 by gingerbob

[Troy Smith]

HV874 Mk.IId: 7 SAAF, 21 Ferry Control. Stalled off turn and crashed Mauripur 25.3.44.

HW874 Mk.IId: 20 Sq, 21 Ferry Control. Spun into ground, Mauripur 25.3.44.

Take your pick. One of them is wrong, I suggest.

I have seen comment elsewhere that at least some 1945 Hurricane squadrons overpainted the white bands on the uppersurfaces because of their low-level operations.

Thanks Graham

Where are these serials listed?

Anyway, this was the serial that was quoted, I don't have the high res film. Sorry for any confusion. Anyone seen the film?

In Birtles' "Hurricane -The Illustrated History" (where the above appears on p.43) there's also a photo captioned 20 Sqn (p.195) showing two aircraft flying from right to left along a beach. 'G' is leading and it looks like 'C' behind. Both have dark spinners. I can't see any stripes, so the photo might predate that.

Shown above, as I did some edits. yes, looks to be 'G' and 'C'

[Graham Boak]

Serials from Air Britain's Royal Air Force Aircraft, various volumes.

What makes you think the Russian aircraft is a Mk.IId not a Mk.IV? They received 21 that I've found. I suspect I've the correct total elsewhere.

[Nick Millman]

Yes, a photo of 20 Sqn Hurricane IID, 'H' KX229 with the name 'Cheeta' on the nose, photographed in late1943 has a black spinner and no white stripes. The tail flash appears to be either red, white and blue or with the red painted out in a fresher colour as it shows. The rigger looks like he is using a foot pump on the port wheel. Heavy exhaust residue but otherwise quite clean looking.

I understand the over painting on the wings and tailplanes was sometimes in the so-called 'India white', e.g, pale blue, but I've never been able to confirm that. In the Squadron Signal book there is a IV with a clearly overpainted or non-white wing stripe but it looks darker than pale blue. Maybe Medium Sea Grey?

I think those SEAC IIDs and IVs make fine model subjects.

Nick

[Troy Smith]

Serials from Air Britain's Royal Air Force Aircraft, various volumes.

What makes you think the Russian aircraft is a Mk.IId not a Mk.IV? They received 21 that I've found. I suspect I've the correct total elsewhere.

The article linked describes it as a IID, as do the Cyrillic captions

"XAappNKeNH" ~ "Harrikein" interstingly the use a Latin D, not the Cyrillic. and "BNKKePC" ~ "VIKKERS" again with a latin S, not the Cyrillic S [C]

The VVS test planes were KX171 ,and KX305.

I don't have the Air Britain books, be good if you could check these serials, thank you.

White bands not "India White" or pale blue. Which is perhaps a bit of a shame.

Yes, a photo of 20 Sqn Hurricane IID, 'H' KX229 with the name 'Cheeta' on the nose, photographed in late1943 has a black spinner and no white stripes. The tail flash appears to be either red, white and blue or with the red painted out in a fresher colour as it shows. The rigger looks like he is using a foot pump on the port wheel. Heavy exhaust residue but otherwise quite clean looking.

I understand the over painting on the wings and tailplanes was sometimes in the so-called 'India white', e.g, pale blue, but I've never been able to confirm that. In the Squadron Signal book there is a IV with a clearly overpainted or non-white wing stripe but it looks darker than pale blue. Maybe Medium Sea Grey?

I think those SEAC IIDs and IVs make fine model subjects.

Nick

ta dah

from - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925893-rocket-armed-hurricanes-in-the-far-east/

Given the bright sunlight I'd be very surprised if these were white bands. Med Sea Grey maybe a better option, but did not India White come about because white was too bright, and was a method for toning down white, and the bands/spinner were specified to be white, as an identification marking, so would not the next option be India White?

The spinners look paler than the undersides, though they could be azure blue...given the soft edge of the camo demarcation. who knows.

Just a guess from previous practice. ( And, I think India White bands would look great on a model..)

[Kallisti]

Those are IVs not IIds or have I missed the point of this conversation?

5 Sqn had Hurricane IIc and IId up until September '44 when they switched to Thunderbolts so unlikely to have had white stripes, no matter how many profiles show them with stripes!

Found this photo which seems to show stripes on the wings but doesn't identify unit, time or airctaft mark (I think it might be a IIc though)

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CF 352)IWM Non Commercial Licence

Edited February 27, 2015 by Kallisti

[Nick Millman]

Those are IVs not IIds or have I missed the point of this conversation?

The thread drifted from the original question of whether IIDs had stripes (20 Sqn IIDs did have them) to what colour were the toned down looking wing stripes seen in some photos.

e.g. in the photo you posted the stripe doesn't look particularly white!

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Looks like white bands with dust to me - too light to be Medium Sea Grey, not dark enough to have any value as "toned down" to avoid compromising the camouflage. Although here, perhaps, the tendency of blue to appear lighter in b&w photos may be misleading.

KX171 and KA305 were indeed Mk.IID. KZ171 saw previous service with 164 Sq. The familiar photo of their lineup (KZX413 FJ.M in the foreground) doesn't look like an armoured radiator to me. This does take me (if no-one else!) back to the question of the build standard of the later Mk.IId, and perhaps Mk.IIs in general (I agree that the previous picture is a Mk.IIc). Loading this extra armour onto the Merlin XX airframe would make it even more cumbersome.

The retention of the Mk.IId so late does make me wonder about just how many Mk.IVs were ever equipped with the big gun. (Russian deliveries presumably excepted?)

[Nick Millman]

Hmm, compare the band in the image posted by Troy with the prop blade tip which is presumably yellow. The band is slightly lighter, in greyscale, than the centre of the SEAC roundel, but would probably not be expected to be identical. The light blue colour as officially mixed had an appearance approximate to FS 35450, or reflectivity of about 40-45%, compared to 26% for Medium Sea Grey, 30% for Azure Blue and 52% for Sky Blue.

The band in the latest photo is fully illuminated by the sun but it is difficult to visualise it as a dusty white compared to the other tones, especially the uniforms being worn. The light colour on the bomb under the wing, which is in shadow, manages to look "lighter" than the wing band. The removed fairing on the ground is presumably Medium Sea Grey. It is a bit of a conundrum.

Nick

[Troy Smith]

Looks like white bands with dust to me - too light to be Medium Sea Grey, not dark enough to have any value as "toned down" to avoid compromising the camouflage. Although here, perhaps, the tendency of blue to appear lighter in b&w photos may be misleading.

KX171 and KA305 were indeed Mk.IID. KZ171 saw previous service with 164 Sq. The familiar photo of their lineup (KZX413 FJ.M in the foreground) doesn't look like an armoured radiator to me. This does take me (if no-one else!) back to the question of the build standard of the later Mk.IId, and perhaps Mk.IIs in general (I agree that the previous picture is a Mk.IIc). Loading this extra armour onto the Merlin XX airframe would make it even more cumbersome.

The retention of the Mk.IId so late does make me wonder about just how many Mk.IVs were ever equipped with the big gun. (Russian deliveries presumably excepted?)

The 1990 FK Mason Hurricane book lists KX413 and KX561 as IIC's !

in this large version, KX413 does look to have an armoured radiator.

Adding the armoured radiator to a specific ground attack variant makes sense as the radiator was very vulnerable.

A quick look at the Mason book says the Merlin 27 was opitmised for oil cooling in high ambient temperatures, but the Mk IV was not popular with the added armour.

The question about late build standard is a good one, another to add to 'the list'

As for Mk IV's with the 40mm guns, again. good question, to state the obvious, the Mk IV had flexibility of weapon options, with the IID you are stuck wth the 40 mm guns.

While not asked, it made me wonder, and a bit of checking in the 1990 Mason book says 524 Mk IV's were built, approx 1 for every 10 mk II's built (see page 102) and about 300 IID's ( page 97) which also says

"Following the arrival of the Mk IV in the Middle East, The Mk IID became largely redundant and, when stock allowed, fairly large numbers joined the flow of aircraft supplied to the Soviet Union in 1943"

[Nick Millman]

So, bearing in mind John Smith's Peoples War BBC recollection, could IICs be turned into IIDs?

[gingerbob]

I imagine it would only be done with a change of wing panels and some alterations to wiring, etc. I can't see anyone in the field taking an actual 'C' wing panel and modifying it to carry the 40mm cannons.

bob

p.s. The Hurricane II Manual (RAF Museum reprint) says something about "late IID and IV" had additional armour protection, though Graham and I have interpreted it differently in the past, so it must have been no more specific than that. I don't really want to go hunting for the quote right now...

[Troy Smith]

So, bearing in mind John Smith's Peoples War BBC recollection, could IICs be turned into IIDs?

I've not run across the People's war recollection, any more detail?

since the defining point on the A/B/C/D designation is the type wing fitted, the fuselage being the same on all apart from any wiring/switches specific to wing in cockpit, and these attach outside the UC legs/centre section, adding D wing to a 'C' airframe would be the same as adding a new wing, though it maybe then still have technically be a C version.

bob has added a post while typing, no, the C and D wing are different, I presume the D wing was based on a modified C wing, but it needs a big hole in the bottom for the ammo drum, and has only one smaller panel behind the main gun access doors, plus numerous other changes.

The IV wing seems to have done away with the inner larger door, the Belgrade plane does not have it at least.

the D and IV wing are based on the C wing, deleting or changing access hatches as needed.

see below.

The C wing has 4 access panel, 2 per cannon.

while the D only has 1 small rear panel, apparently to access the rear of the 40mm gun. As this is a modfied 'C' wing this makes sense, easier to build the main access panels as the C but delete the un-needed one in the rear wing skinning, as can be seen in the IV pics below.

Now, I still don't have a complete answer on the IV. THis is from another thread.

the MK IV has a different panel arrangement, one large panel in the outer position,(for the browning 0.303)and a metal strip not seen on the IIC on the outer edge. And one smaller panel behind the main spar in the inner position for access to the 40mm gun when fitted.

note the blanked out landing light port next to yellow stripe, the 0.303 sighting gun port, and the blanked over inner port, which seems to show that the IV wing was based on a modified IIC wing.

The thing on the wing leading edge next to the joining strip is a camera gun port.

Note

from Tomislav's build, very useful underside detail, note metal plate, which blanks off the bay where the 40mm ammo drum is, stubs for attaching 40 mm gun, and ejector slot for the 0.303 Browning sighting gun.

Of note is the metal strip just by the shell ejector slot, in what looks like the same position as the one on the upper wing.

Are the little bumps further forward to do with positioning of the drop tanks?

Thanks to Tomislav for the photos and helping to answer to my question!

It's worth noting that the only flying Mk IV KZ321/G-HURY, flies with a C wing with 20mm cannon....

There are only 3 Mk IV's left, the other two are the one in Belgrade and one in the Thinktank in Birmingham, hanging up and painted in faux BoB markings...with a C roundel under the wings

more threads

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234927188-hurricane-mk-iid-in-seac/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234936170-mk-iid-hurricane-question/

[Nick Millman]

It's in my post # 9 above:-

"Some of our planes had two 40mm cannon fitted, one under each wing, replacing the 20mm cannon with which the rest were fitted"

Note 'fitted' and 'replacing' which makes it sound like a mod!

Nick