Codger Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Keith, I can tell you that the Rolls Sedanca kits have 3 types of plastic and the worst of the lot is the brown. Snaps in half by looking at it. The blacks and gray respond well to my heat gun. Not a hair dryer, a mechanics heat gun; Used carefully, the plastic will comply. Didn't use hot water because I didn't want a huge pot of very hot water due to the size of the pots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I used hot water on my Rolls and Alfa panels. Just be very careful not only of a pot of hot water, but DON'T get the water too hot. I made that mistake on my Alfa rad shroud and the entire part SHRUNK rendering it useless. Fortunately or good pal Pet at Pocherparts came to the rescue... Roy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Thanks guys, Ian, like Roy said there are no more of the old plastic classics being produced and what I was referring specifically to was, the "Classic" Mercedes kits. But, it wasn't the last they made before closing shop; they made the big Volvo F-12 & F-16 trucks in the "Truck" series and the diecast F-40's and Porsche in the "Prestige" line and the stand alone Volvo truck, Bugatti and F-40 engines in the "Engines" line before Pocher Rivarossi closed shop. All the new stuff is being done by Hornby Pocher which as Roy has noted began with the Lamborghini Aventador and continuing on now with the Ducati 1299 Panigale Superbike. Whew, that's the long way of saying I was only talking about the Mercs. Keith, you shouldn't have to bend anything to get the brown sort of flocked floor pan in place; it's held in place by two screws from the bottom of the frame by the rear end that's it. If it doesn't fit then maybe it might just need a little tweaking but it really just sits there and the screws go through the front edge of the rectangular frame plates. It's on Paul's DVD in body test fitting part 1 frames 8-9. As you go through that whole body test fitting section you will see the wisdom of doing some test fitting before you have all the rest of the suspension, engine and trans in place. It's a lot easier to handle and like I said before, you can get a lot of main stuff out of the way earlier but, this is only a suggestion. You will still need to fuss with it later but, the main stuff is done. All, It seems like the use of heat is more of a personal preference on which method to use so, I am going to do a little experiment using hot water and some scrap Pocher plastic that I have that is the about the same thickness of the hood panels. In my previous life I used and accumulated a lot of tools so, I'm going to break out my temperature meter from my HVAC tools and take the water temperature when the plastic starts to bend or I am able to change the shape without damage. This way I will have a baseline temperature for any future problems with warped panels on the Pochers. So, I believe at the moment that will be today's experiment. Lastly, Codger, I found some piano hinges on a couple of websites that might work and one website in particular that really looks to be the best. First, it was our old friends at Micromark that have a 15" long hinge for $13.95 and then there was Minimum World that have one designated as 1/12 scale at 120mm x 90mm for $2.48 each, last was Nelson Hobby that have a whole variety ranging from 10" to 30" long with flanges from 3/8" to 3/4". Prices on the Nelson Hobby hinges are from $6.05 for a 3/8" x 10" hinge and up. So, I'm going to have to get out my calculator and micrometer and figure out which will work the best. I'll post something later today or tomorrow if I make any progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codger Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Well and good on the hinges Wayne. Just be sure that if you want exposed hinges (like the center of the hood) that you get bright or chrome plated hinges. Many of these are brass and if exposed won't match the chrome bits on the car already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 These are what came up on my search; do you have a specific source for chrome plated hinges? Thanks, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codger Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 These are what came up on my search; do you have a specific source for chrome plated hinges? Thanks, Wayne Sadly I don't. I'm using the kit center hinge and brass outer ones. They will be finished the underhood color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 That's my plan B if I can't find the chrome plated ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) The results are in. I started boiling a pot of water and started at 130 degrees and of course it wasn't hot enough. I kept dipping the part about every 10 degrees hotter for about 15-20 seconds each time and pulling it out and holding and bending the hood panel to the shape I wanted for another 15-20 seconds and then I held it under running cold water. Not much was happening until I hit about 180 degrees. I then got it in there at 185 and climbing for the same 15-20 seconds and pulled it out and it still had some resistance but I could feel it wanting to change shape and then I put it under the running cold water and it was pretty straight. So, here are the before and after pictures and the temp gauge. Here is where the temperature ended after I had made the final bend. I had turned the heat down to try and keep it around 185 degrees. So bottom line, it looks like 185-190 degrees is the right temperature for 15-20 seconds at a time and then hold it in position for about the same amount of time and then put it under cold running water to set it in place. That's about as close as I can come to a good baseline for using hot water to straighten the body parts. I would think that thicker parts might take at bit more heat a little longer and thinner pieces a slightly lower temp. The key was bringing up the temp gradually and testing and keeping track of how long I did each step. It was important to keep everything the same otherwise, I wouldn't really know what worked for use the next time. I know the second picture looks a little off but it isn't, it's the shadow and the panel is now straight. Here's one more that shows it better and I know it's not dead straight but, once I get a 5" piano hinge on it, there won't be anything noticeable. + Straight hood panel, perfect fit now! Wayne Edited July 14, 2015 by larchiefeng 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codger Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 A great documented test procedure. Thanks for the explicit details, great photos and taking the time to teach us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) No problem, always glad to help. I kept seeing all the different ways of resolving warped pieces and I decided it would be a good idea to really know what the actual time and temperature it takes to bend them back in shape and be relatively sure of a consistent result. My public service for the day. And I think I'm just going to expose all the hood hinges and paint them so I'm buying enough to do all three to be sure they are the same. Now, I have to wait for those but, tomorrow is take apart and sand and paint day for the roadster. Edited July 15, 2015 by larchiefeng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Thanks for posting the details of the water method. I totally wrecked my Bentley's side panels trying to do that - they warped and shrank very quickly! Thanks to Airfix spares for the rescue package.... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 No problem, just remember that this was for the Pocher plastic parts which from my experience are much thicker and a bit different than regular styrene. The parts of the Bentley would have been reshaped at a lower temperature. I know most people don't have temperature meters like mine but a cooking thermometer would work too. I was on a full flame burner with the temperature constantly rising until it hit about 180 and I turned it down but the temperature kept rising and with the digital readout I was able to monitor it closely and either adjust the time in the water or wait for it to come back down. I actually put the part in at 180 and held there for about 20 seconds and by then it had climbed to the 185 range and when I was done with the cold water it had gone up to the 189 in the picture. It was handy to be able to watch the temperature while the part was in the water and if it had climbed faster I would have pulled the part sooner. I hope that helps and, if anyone wants to try this there are two things to do; watch the temperature and test first on a piece of scrap plastic of what you are going to heat up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 I got the body off the frame today and sanded it all down; those fenders are awkward to deal with and everything is on the super size side. Before I put down a coat of primer I wanted to make the first cut between the seat and tonneau cover. I made the long cut with a saw and will finish it off with the Dremel later. When I do the color coat I will mask off the seats to keep the paint off so the leather and glue is sticking to plastic and not paint. The first two pictures show where I'm making the cut; this Mercedes has a molded in seat and will be a bit more awkward to do the seat leather than one by itself on the bench. I've already given the reason for this so, here are the pictures. Here we have the body parts minus one hood side panel that I discovered was a little bit warped and I want to straighten it out before I start painting it. It's the side that the side pipes come through and it's just one of the small sections on the panel. Lucky for me the spray booth is big enough for the fenders but, not everything at once. The body needs another coat because I wanted to make sure I had enough paint to get down a first mist coat on all the pieces from the one can I had. I'm using the Tamiya grey primer which is lacquer. I plan on using regular rattle can flat black enamel on the under body like the fenders and any part of the body visible from underneath. With the Tamiya primer coat I can use anything for the gloss black top coat. That means lacquer, enamel or acrylic paint because you can spray anything over lacquer but, not the other way around. Doesn't look like much but, it was quite a bit of work taking this thing apart, sanding, washing and painting all these pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If it's of any help, I did the same kind of thing with the moulded-in seats in my Alfa. Pages 6-7 of my build might be useful... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234967558-pocher-alfa-romeo-spider/page-6 Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks Roy, I did go back and re-read your build thread again and now I'm thinking that the only way to do the seat in the Merc is to completely cut it out and upholster it as a separate piece. I wish I could see a picture or two of how you did the underneath support part of it as that's really what concerns me the most. I've been going back and forth on that but, fortunately I have a couple of other Mercedes roadsters to use as reference or model for a template if needed. I want to build a compartment for the seat to sit in and when viewed from underneath the car it wouldn't be just a bunch strips holding a seat up. Kind of defeats the purpose otherwise. I'm having a hard time keeping my concentration today what with the Open on TV for 12 hours and the Tour on TV for 5 hours; I keep stopping to see who did what. I also reached out to Larry to see if he has any ideas for this as well. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Well, I'm kind of in a holding pattern on the hood at the moment waiting on the piano hinge to get here so I can install them on the side panels and then paint the under hood an bare metal or black finish and then paint the top coat. I can't go any further with the body if I cut out the seat and I've decided to replace the kit marker lights on the fenders so, I have to fill the three holes on each fender before I can paint them. I need to install the door hinges on the doors and then I suppose I could paint the door skins after mask them off. So, for the most part I'm pretty stalled on the body. I have also decided to remove the engine and use it in my K82 Roadster and take the engine from the K82 and rebuild it for this car as a 540K engine so, in the end it will truly be a 540K Roadster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 It seems to have gone Pocher mad around here recently. Found these K91 step by step pictures, including some rather spiffing upgraded seats: https://picasaweb.google.com/rfuhrich66/PictureReportPocher18MercedesBenzTrueRoadsterK91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks for the the link, it gives me some more information as I move forward later today. I like his upholstery seat build technique and the way he did each padded seat rib. After looking at Roy's Alfa and a few other building references I have from Marvin Meit and David Cox I've decided that I will probably not only cut the seat out but possibly the tonneau cover as well. I'm leaning that way but, until I actually make the cut I won't know for sure. In the meantime I have a couple more pictures here. The first is the under side of the fenders with their dark gray semi gloss paint along with the rest of the primered body pieces. The next one is the straightened right side hood panel that I discovered had a bit of a warp to it. I went back and followed my own directions and heated the water up to 185 and put it in for about 15 seconds and it straightened right up and held its shape under the cold running water. I straightened the side that's up in the vise And something to do with nothing- a new acquisition that I need to sort through tonight. Here's what I need to do with the parts of the maroon one; sort them like the white one The pair together with an Alfa Spider chassis in the background Here are the two Monzas I'm working on but, have been set aside for a little while BTW, the white Merc is the one I'm planning on swapping engines with for the 540K engine build on this roadster. So, it looks like the white one will be the next Merc after this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 That's a lot of Pocher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Maybe I should ship one to Codger so he has something to do after he finishes his Rolls. In the meantime, I did shoot a light coat of gloss black on the fenders on the roadster before the weather changes and it gets really humid. Everything else is waiting on something. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well, I finally made the cut and removed the seat using a small saw, an Xacto blade with a #11 style blade with saw teeth and a Dremel tool and a diamond blade. So, here are final pictures of the day. I'm going to do a little clean up on it tomorrow and then switch gears for a day or two and work on my group build aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpfiend Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Really nice progress Wayne. That's quite a collection you have there. I really like the shape of the rumble seat body. I may have to look into acquiring one of those. Best Regards Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Some great work going on in your Pocher 'factory'. It's great to see so many on one forum! Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks Keith, that's what I was alluding to a few pages ago about the body style versus the roadster and cabriolet body styles and I always liked the white and maroon ones better. They have the straight line on the door top and the long tail end with the rumble seat. I also have the red K85 new in the box and another cabriolet in addition to these. The Alfa Monzas and the Mercedes Roadsters have become my favorites and if I come across a bargain I usually pick one up, it's not like they are losing any value. So, it's kind of my version of a savings account. Having said all that, I have actually started to like this K91. It has better body fit and actually goes together quite well; the only down side is the plastic wire wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larchiefeng Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks Roy and yes we meant that as a compliment on Codger's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roymattblack Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Many thanks once again. As an add-on to your method of collecting Pocher kits/cars, I missed a 'started' but complete Mercedes kit on Ebay only a few days ago. I had it in my 'Watch' list but a mental hiccup made me check a day too late. It went for £160!!!! Oh well - win some...lose some... Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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