Dave Fleming Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Found these interesting pics on the IWM site - what colours do we think these might be? IIRC SD Lysanders were Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey over Black - could the Hudson be the same? Or are we looking at a Dark Green/Ocean Grey or Dark Green/Dark earth aircraft with a high tonal contrast in the B+W pic (I have seen the effect on both colour schemes) http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205045715 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205090502 BTW, in the background to this shot is one of the SD Bostons (There was an article on them in Air Enthusiast once) http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205189265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 FWIW I'd say Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over Night as per the night intruder scheme. Dull Red codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Hiya Dave, Just what Nick says,......I`ve been interested in these Hudson`s for a while and that is the conclusion that I came to as well. Here is a photo of Hudson III T9439, MA-R of 161 which landed in Sweden. I`m hoping to build the Special Hobby/Ialeri kit in these markings some time, Cheers Tony Edited February 10, 2015 by tonyot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Glad we are all on the same hymn sheet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 So am I - same as SD Lysanders and Mosquito intruders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'll throw in a vote (or two if the elections authorities will let me get away with it) for Nick's interpretation as well. Tony... are you finally shying away from the bigger Lockheed twins now!? What's after Hudsons... a shelf full of l'il Electras? Sid Cotton would be so proud. Cheers, Terry @ SkyGrid Studio / Aviaeology Publishing Hiya Terry, I still have plenty of Ventura`s to build yet and quite a few Hudson`s too (some of which are your fault but I`m not complaining!), at least 3 Lodestars, and a few of the smaller Lockheed twins are on the cards too! I just wish that the SH/Italeri Hudson kit was easier to build! I do hope that Airfix would consider replacing their old Hudson with a new super duper kit as well as adding a Beaufort to their range too! Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Perhaps a little bit out of scope, but I'd like to put together ALL known camouflage standards of RAF Hudsons. The list isn't short, but something new can be added still I hope. 1. Dark Earth + Dark Green over Night 2. Dark Earth + Dark Green over Sky 3. Dark Earth + Dark Green over Sky Grey 4. Dark Earth + Middle Stone over Azure Blue 5. Dark Slate Grey + Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky 6. Dark Slate Grey + Extra Dark Sea Grey over Azure Blue 7. Dark Slate Grey + Extra Dark Sea Grey over White 8. Dark Green + Sea Grey Medium over Night 9. Dark Green + Ocean Grey over Night Any other ideas, Gentlemen? Edited February 12, 2015 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dark earth/Dark green over aluminium is an option for very early deliveries pre SKY iIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 BTW, in the background to this shot is one of the SD Bostons (There was an article on them in Air Enthusiast once) http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205189265 Hi Not trying to hijack the thread, but any info on serials/codes available on these ? they sound interesting. cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Hiya Dave, Just what Nick says,......I`ve been interested in these Hudson`s for a while and that is the conclusion that I came to as well. Here is a photo of Hudson III T9439, MA-R of 161 which landed in Sweden. I`m hoping to build the Special Hobby/Ialeri kit in these markings some time, Cheers Tony Hi, Interestingly the squadron codes are not present in this photo. cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 KRK! Someone mentioned Sidney Cotton. He was responsible for quite a few one-off schemes using his Camotint colours. I'm away from my references now but there were at least three schemes. IIRC one was overall Sky, another was possibly an overall Light Slate Grey, whilst the third was painted by someone who had partaken of one too many magic mushroom omelettes! http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/550/pics/9_7.jpg I have an old 80's vintage Almark sheet for RAF PR types that include them. I'll see if I can dig it out. Coming back to 'normal' British schemes, there were also variations in the position of the demarcation between upper and lower camouflage colours. I *think* these are referred to a Type 1 and Type 2. Maybe someone can confirm which was which. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Trevor - thanks for these oddities, although it's hard to call them "standards" Thanks to Dave we have No.10 - Dark Earth + Dark Green over Aluminium And what about TSS over Light Med Blue, TSS over Night, DE/MS over Light Med Blue, DE/MS over Night, any topsides over Yellow, a.s.o.? Edited February 17, 2015 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Hi, Interestingly the squadron codes are not present in this photo. cheers jerry They are, or at least a shadow of the M is visible just under the rearmost window. The effect is odd, as it looks a bit like outline only, or thinly overpainted, but probably it's only the similarity in tonal effect under the specific lighting conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dark Earth/Green/ Aluminium Lockheed Hudson Mk. III by Etiennedup, on Flickr Dark earth/Dark Green over Azure blue was another in West Africa. Lockeed Hudson by Etiennedup, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 They are, or at least a shadow of the M is visible just under the rearmost window. The effect is odd, as it looks a bit like outline only, or thinly overpainted, but probably it's only the similarity in tonal effect under the specific lighting conditions.Hi Thanks i didnt notice that cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Hi Not trying to hijack the thread, but any info on serials/codes available on these ? they sound interesting. cheers jerry I'll see if I can find the AE article. I THINK it was this issue but I'll check when I get home. http://www.theaviationindex.com/publication/volume-130-july-2007/article/cloak-and-dagger-mi6-covert-wartime-intelligence And it's my thread, so hijack away - I like an organic discusssion! Edited February 12, 2015 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 They are, or at least a shadow of the M is visible just under the rearmost window. The effect is odd, as it looks a bit like outline only, or thinly overpainted, but probably it's only the similarity in tonal effect under the specific lighting conditions. Actually both M and A are visible - A just forward of M. Were they red? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Hiya Dave, Just what Nick says,......I`ve been interested in these Hudson`s for a while and that is the conclusion that I came to as well. Here is a photo of Hudson III T9439, MA-R of 161 which landed in Sweden. I`m hoping to build the Special Hobby/Ialeri kit in these markings some time, Cheers Tony I'll add my vote for MSG/Dk Green upper surfaces as has been stated but :- Is it my imagination but does the 'grey' on the fins look slightly darker than the 'grey' on the fuselage in Tony's shot ? and if you compare the pattern on Tony's shot with the ones Dave referred to, the pattern is reversed on the fins and "not really comparable" with the fuselage. Interesting to say the least. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 First the landing in Sweden took place in April 1944, while 167 Hudson Mk.III SR aircraft (serials T9386_9465, V8975_9065 and V9220_9254) were delivered to the RAF in 1940-41. In the meantime the SD planes sported Ocean Grey + Dark Green uppersurfaces (since October 1942), with grey replaced by much lighter shade (Sea Grey Medium) since February 1943. Thus it could be possible that vertical tails remained in OG for some time in 1943, but surely not in 1944. Even if they were taken as replacement parts (cannibalized) from another Hudson. In my opinion the impression of darker shade appears only due to the difference in lighting the almost plain vertical surface and the convex (almost round) fuselage. On other photos of the same plane the effect doesn't appear. http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/RAFe/RAF047-T9439.html Of course last photos show T9439 with roundels, code letters and fin flashes overpainted by Swedes in still lighter shade of grey, but at least there the fin & rudder tops look identical in hue to the lighter (i.e. SGM) areas on fuselage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 # 3 is dodgy. Do you mean US equivalent colours? If so the Hudson paint was closer to Sky than Sky Grey. In RAF/MAP terminology Sky Grey means something else. Also, some in the past have misinterpreted the aluminium under surfaces as Sky Grey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) For dozens of years I was sure that 1939 scheme for General Recce Ansons and Hudsons was TLS over Sky Grey. Was I mislead? Sky Type S was introduced in 1940 IIRC, while Aluminium undersurfaces were discontinued in late 1938. Edited February 17, 2015 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The RAF did not use Sky Grey: only the FAA. Sky or a close equivalent had been used on Blenheim bombers over the winter 1939/40. My understanding is that Aluminium or Night remained the instructions for Coastal into the war years until the wider introduction of Sky. However, perhaps Rossm has a fuller account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 For dozens of years I was sure that 1939 scheme for General Recce Ansons and Hudsons was TLS over Sky Grey. Was I mislead? Sky Type S was introduced in 1940 IIRC, while Aluminum undersurfaces were discontinued in late 1938. Aluminium or Night was the undersurface colour for Coastal Command until April 1940 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The RAF did not use Sky Grey: only the FAA. Sky or a close equivalent had been used on Blenheim bombers over the winter 1939/40. My understanding is that Aluminium or Night remained the instructions for Coastal into the war years until the wider introduction of Sky. However, perhaps Rossm has a fuller account? So were the RAF No.210 Sq. Sunderlands in 1940 (TLS uppersurfaces, e.g. L5802, N5798) left with Aluminium undersides? Edited February 17, 2015 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Yes (in fact on checking it seems aluminium undersides on coastal command aircraft lasted longer than April). Either clear or pigmented Lanolin. Ross' page Graham mentions: http://www.hrmtech.com/sig/articles/coastal_cam.asp Edited February 17, 2015 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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