Brian J Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I realize that the markings of this well known aircraft have been covered in some detail on the 'All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here' thread but I would like to address another aspect of this Hurricane. I first became aware of Karel Kuttelwascher decades ago after reading the article 'Kuttlewascher ---Intruder Ace' in the December 1959 issue of Royal Air Force Flying Review. Like others I was intrigued by the 5-view art work by James Goulding in Profile 24 back in 1965. Since then many kits and after market decals have been issued with these markings. There have been various interpretations as to the style of the letter codes and the placement of the serial numbers on the fuselage. These markings are usually in the mid summer 1942 colours of Ocean Grey/Dark Green with Black (Night) undersurfaces. I recently purchased the Xtradecal sheet 72-113 and decided that it is finally time to add a model of this aircraft to my collection. According to Nick Millman in a comment made on January 6, 2009 in response to a thread started by 'Hardtarget' on this site the all black markings of this Hurricane are based on the 1942 artwork of J H Striebel Jr "depicting the aircraft on 4 May 1942' when Kuttelwascher was credited with destroying three Heinkel He 111s. In an earlier comment on these markings, Nick indicated, "The painting was used as a reference for the profile in Francis K Mason's Profile on the Hurricane. The black rudder and wing panel came from a Turbinlite flight Hurricane DB770 and the Hurricane had red doped repair patches on the port aileron, rear fuselage and tail unit. AS THE PAINTING WAS DRAWN FROM LIFE I GUESS IT IS A PRETTY ACCURATE RECREATION OF THE AIRCRAFT AS IT APPEARED." The last sentence is my emphasis. My apologies for the long winded introduction. My question is...What are these later markings/camouflage scheme based on? Is anyone aware of photographs of this Hurricane in the later (post all black) scheme? The Xtradecal sheet I referred to includes markings for two other 1 Squadron Hurricanes (JX*S and JX*I) in mid-summer 1942, markings that include Ocean Grey/Dark Green upper surfaces and Medium Sea Grey lower surfaces with a Sky spinner. Why would Kuttlewascher's Hurricane have a red spinner, black undersurfaces and red code letters while the other aircraft have a standard colour scheme? When this Hurricane was repainted would the entire aircraft be repainted and the starboard nose art be reapplied as well as the squadron code letters? Was the nose art 'Night Reaper' a decal or was it hand painted? Was it reapplied in the exact style and location? The fact that individual red patches are placed in exact locations indicates that the 5-view artwork of James Goulding must be based on more than the 1942 painting of Mr. Striebel which shows the aircraft in all black markings. It may well be I am missing something that is obvious, something my wife often brings to my attention but if light can be shed on this subject I would be most grateful.
Horr!do Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Here is from czech decal producer DK decals. He has three versions of Kutt Hurricane. Its propably best reconstruction ever. http://www.dkdecals.cz/navod_hurricane.jpg
tonyot Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 We`ve been asking the same question for some time,......are there any photos of this `famous' Hurricane? I`ve never seen one. Cheers Tony
RJP Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Has it really been fifty years since the Profile came out? Good grief, I remember it like it was yesterday. Profiles were such a breath of fresh air that I always assumed/believed/hoped that the Goulding painting was right in all respects. But if Goulding got it wrong, I'd certainly like to know. If this new decal sheet has it correct, or perhaps more correct, than what we have seen in the past, how do we know without that supporting documentation? Has anyone ever seen an actual photograph? Edited February 9, 2015 by RJP
Troy Smith Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 First, apologies if a little disjointed, but trying to collate relevant information in one place, I may re-edit for clarity later. I realize that the markings of this well known aircraft have been covered in some detail on the 'All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here' thread but I would like to address another aspect of this Hurricane. I first became aware of Karel Kuttelwascher decades ago after reading the article 'Kuttlewascher ---Intruder Ace' in the December 1959 issue of Royal Air Force Flying Review. Like others I was intrigued by the 5-view art work by James Goulding in Profile 24 back in 1965. Since then many kits and after market decals have been issued with these markings. There have been various interpretations as to the style of the letter codes and the placement of the serial numbers on the fuselage. These markings are usually in the mid summer 1942 colours of Ocean Grey/Dark Green with Black (Night) undersurfaces. I recently purchased the Xtradecal sheet 72-113 and decided that it is finally time to add a model of this aircraft to my collection. According to Nick Millman in a comment made on January 6, 2009 in response to a thread started by 'Hardtarget' on this site the all black markings of this Hurricane are based on the 1942 artwork of J H Striebel Jr "depicting the aircraft on 4 May 1942' when Kuttelwascher was credited with destroying three Heinkel He 111s. In an earlier comment on these markings, Nick indicated, "The painting was used as a reference for the profile in Francis K Mason's Profile on the Hurricane. The black rudder and wing panel came from a Turbinlite flight Hurricane DB770 and the Hurricane had red doped repair patches on the port aileron, rear fuselage and tail unit. AS THE PAINTING WAS DRAWN FROM LIFE I GUESS IT IS A PRETTY ACCURATE RECREATION OF THE AIRCRAFT AS IT APPEARED." The last sentence is my emphasis. My apologies for the long winded introduction. My question is...What are these later markings/camouflage scheme based on? Is anyone aware of photographs of this Hurricane in the later (post all black) scheme? The Xtradecal sheet I referred to includes markings for two other 1 Squadron Hurricanes (JX*S and JX*I) in mid-summer 1942, markings that include Ocean Grey/Dark Green upper surfaces and Medium Sea Grey lower surfaces with a Sky spinner. Why would Kuttlewascher's Hurricane have a red spinner, black undersurfaces and red code letters while the other aircraft have a standard colour scheme? When this Hurricane was repainted would the entire aircraft be repainted and the starboard nose art be reapplied as well as the squadron code letters? Was the nose art 'Night Reaper' a decal or was it hand painted? Was it reapplied in the exact style and location? The fact that individual red patches are placed in exact locations indicates that the 5-view artwork of James Goulding must be based on more than the 1942 painting of Mr. Striebel which shows the aircraft in all black markings. It may well be I am missing something that is obvious, something my wife often brings to my attention but if light can be shed on this subject I would be most grateful. the post you refer to is this http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page-3#entry1686873 As far as I am aware, the profile below is based on descriptions. It has some serious errors. I have never seen, or heard of an actual photo of this scheme. If it had been published, someone would know about it. It may exist in a private collection. Has it really been fifty years since the Profile came out? Good grief, I remember it like it was yesterday. Profiles were such a breath of fresh air that I always assumed/believed/hoped that the Goulding painting was right in all respects. But if Goulding got it wrong, I'd certainly like to know. If this new decal sheet has it correct, or perhaps more correct, than what we have seen in the past, how do we know without that supporting documentation? Has anyone ever seen an actual photograph? The Profiles were great then, but an alwful lot more information has come out, partly because of the researches of modellers. Much in the profile series has been superceded or discarded. You only have to look at the some of the German fighter monographs for the proof of that, the Bf109G is full of errors and the colour profiles are junk. Right, here's the profile in question please note The black rudder and wing panel came from a Turbinlite flight Hurricane DB770 and the Hurricane had red doped repair patches on the port aileron, rear fuselage and tail unit. THIS IS NOT A REMOVABLE PANEL on ANY Hurricane. I can believe the cannon access hatches were replaced but as described IT CANNOT HAPPEN. This is part of a large piece of the WING SKINNING. Even if repaired you could not just take a piece of another Hurricanes wing, it's a riveted down panel I'll try to find a IIC wing but this is the Mk IV in Belgrade, and it should show the skinning well enough the sky band would be over painted. Look at the photos from the Ducimus booklet below of 87 sq intruder schemes. in short, the profile is JUNK. As has been stated on here frequently when there is a clash between profiles, never trust a profile without a photograph This profile has become 'fact' as it never really got questioned, and has been reproduced in various forms ever since. The BBMF Hurricane was painted in a scheme to match the Goulding profile, but they are not always accurate in their markings. see - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963423-letter-to-the-bbmf-re-the-seac-hurricane-colour-scheme-issues/ for proof of this lack or research. photos here's show the 'replacement wing panel' I rant about. You can see it's not possible to be a replacement panel. If Tony has not seen a photo of 'Night Reaper' , I'm doubtful one has ever been published, it may exist in a private collection. Tony is a very knowledgeable chap on matters Hurricane, and has resources I don't as well. The Xtradecal sheet I referred to includes markings for two other 1 Squadron Hurricanes (JX*S and JX*I) in mid-summer 1942, markings that include Ocean Grey/Dark Green upper surfaces and Medium Sea Grey lower surfaces with a Sky spinner. Why would Kuttlewascher's Hurricane have a red spinner, black undersurfaces and red code letters while the other aircraft have a standard colour scheme? It may well be I am missing something that is obvious, Because the 1 squadron went from day operations to night operations. The photo is taken post May 1942, as the C roundel has come in. lovely high res shot of this, as an aside, note the differences in style of code letters, with squared and curved 'J's The all black scheme is a night fighter scheme, and was then modified to an intruder scheme, I presume as an all black aircraft shows up as a silhouette from above. Compare to the later standard night fighter scheme used on Mosquito's and Beaufighter's here's a high res pic of an 87 sq intruder, note the shoddy uppersurface paintwork, over the black overall. As far to often people don't read the linked threads, here's the page from the Ducimus Camo and Markings booklet on Hurricane night and intruder schemes First word is of the below is 'no' HTH 1
gingerbob Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I wonder if the profile might have been influenced by the 87 Squadron aircraft. There is a trap in that, though- if No.1 Squadron went from day to night ops, they'd have either gone all black or had some modification to the regular day-fighter scheme. In the case of 87 Squadron, however, they'd been a night intruder squadron, with all-black paint jobs, and the upper camo was ordered specifically for participation at Dieppe (August), because they'd be operating in some degree of daylight. So, different direction of scheme evolution, different date, different squadron, different reason. I'd be extremely wary of making any extrapolations! bob
Graham Boak Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 It is relevant that the intruder scheme was Night undersides with Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey uppers, not overall Night. Goulding doesn't quote the dates of the introduction of this scheme, but it is clearly present at the time of the over-painting of 87 Sq. I don't see this as a feature of Dieppe in particular: otherwise we'd have seen Dark Green and Ocean Grey as the choice of colours, and the aircraft would not have been carrying long-range tanks for these operations.
gingerbob Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Graham, I've looked at the 87 Squadron ORBs- this was a specific case, not "bring it in line with the new intruder scheme". Anyway, that change from black to camo'd upper surfaces happened at a different time, as I recall (though it may well be part of the story with No.1 Squadron). bob
Nick Millman Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 The photo of JX-E referred to shows it in an all black finish, as does the Streibel painting. This was at the time of the Dornier and Heinkel claims which were made on night intruder operations. When I first started exploring this I was under the impression that Mr Goulding's profile was based on the 1942 Streibel painting. But it wasn't. In his 1984 biography of Kuttelwascher Roger Darlington describes exactly the same details as those shown in Mr Goulding's profile but later wrote:- "This (all black finish) is how it is portrayed in the painting by J H Streibel (although there is little detail in a water colour painting) but, more significantly, this is clear from a photograph which we have recently acquired from a man who serviced JX-E at the time" "Throughout my research for "Night Hawk", I assumed that James Goulding's profile was accurate (it was so detailed and used so often) and Maurice Gardner therefore used it as the basis for the book cover in 1984. Subsequently I became convinced that, in fact, Kuttelwascher's Hurricane at the time of night intruder operations was all black and the cover of the Czech edition of the book (1993) shows the aircraft in this colour scheme." There is a black and white photograph of the 1942 Streibel painting opposite page 193 in Mr Darlington's 1984 book (William Kimber). IIRC Paul Lucas wrote a MAM feature on night fighter and night intruder Hurricanes and their colours which might be helpful in terms of the chronology of the schemes. But the question remains as to what Mr Goulding based the details of his profile on. The details are specific enough to suggest that they must have come from somewhere. They also featured on the box art and painting instructions of the Frog Hurricane kit.
Brian J Posted February 9, 2015 Author Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) Thanks to the gentlemen who took the time to respond to my query. When everything is said and done I find that I agree with Nick's final sentence, "But the question remains as to what Mr Goulding based the details of his profile on." What the standard operating procedures were, what black and white photos from other units suggest seem irrelevant to some degree in this case. We are asking about a specific airframe for which photographic verification has yet to turn up. At the bottom of page 2 in the Profile 24 (something not very often done in that series), the following statement is made. "Upper surfaces were finished in standard dark green and grey. Lower surfaces were black. Black rudder and wing panel were replacement components from Turbinlite flight Hurricane BD770. Aircraft displayed red doped patches over previous battle damage on port aileron, real fuselage and tail unit." Someone, Mr Goulding or the author Francis K Mason made a specific detailed description of the 5 view in question. They must have had access to this unusually marked aircraft or why would they feel this information had to be added. Is Mr Goulding still with us? What happens to the research material and references of researchers like Mr Goulding and others after they pass on? What became of his research material? In other words, we may have to go back to the ORIGINAL source to find answers to this question. The detailed comments suggest he had access to material unknown to us. I find this exchange of ideas most interesting and hope it continues in a positive way. Thanks again, gentlemen for all your comments! Edited February 9, 2015 by Brian J
Troy Smith Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 the description may have been from the chap Nick mentions "This (all black finish) is how it is portrayed in the painting by J H Streibel (although there is little detail in a water colour painting) but, more significantly, this is clear from a photograph which we have recently acquired from a man who serviced JX-E at the time" I can't see an intruder Hurricane having a sky band or yellow leading edges, I can believe it looks like the 87 sq plane shown above. as for the wing panels, and it being a verbal description, here is a Sea Hurricane with replacement cannon access doors in the starboard wing. I could believe replacement panels like this, but not as shown in the profile for reason stated above. The red doped repairs would be a 'moment in time', in this case the date of "4th May 1942" and would have been over-painted when opportunity arose. The date is of interest, as the C type roundels came in in May 42, so is the date correct? Was 1 squadron on day and night intruder missions at the same time, give the DFS finished 1 sq planes above? I've not seen these questions asked before, so they might help.
Nick Millman Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Is Mr Goulding still with us? Sadly I believe not. James Goulding 1923-2010. He worked in the Gloster design office and also illustrated box art for Frog kits. He reportedly drew the first accurate plans of the E28 - "He had seen the actual E28 himself and his article (in Aircraft Illustrated November 1969) includes what is still the most authoritative colour information available." He was 19 in May 1942 which might or might not be relevant to the profile.
brewerjerry Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Hi Link to a profile page, it has a close up of him with the hurricane (cockpit area ) http://aces.safarikovi.org/biography/cz/cz/kuttelwascher.html cheers jerry
Flavio Posted September 22, 2017 Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) Hi all, have a look here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205090092 Probably not a definitive answer but we finally have an overview of the plane. Note the Medium Sea Grey code letters, the antenna mast probably left in the original camouflage (Brown, Mixed Grey?), and the tip of the spinner...Sky (Sky Blue)? Flavio Edited September 22, 2017 by Flavio
Troy Smith Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Flavio said: Hi all, have a look here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205090092 Probably not a definitive answer but we finally have an overview of the plane. Note the Medium Sea Grey code letters, the antenna mast probably left in the original camouflage (Brown, Mixed Grey?), and the tip of the spinner...Sky (Sky Blue)? Flavio posted here under "fair use" Thanks Flavio intriguing image I don't recall seeing before. the Aerial maybe natural wood. the ragged outline to the roundel, as well as the discolouration along the fuselage, exhaust stating from long running 'leaned out'? The spinner tip is very interesting, can't see a reason for it to be Sky, or Sky Grey (as are the codes?) It's a close tonal match to the roundel Yellow, or maybe a brighter red, or just that the spinner is directly illuminated by the sun, (note the shadows, imagine the sun position, and the it's a clear day as shadows are sharp) Note the famous image of BE500 has an unpainted aerial mast,as well as canopy frames, and as has been discussed before, the spinner appears lighter than the fin flash. Codes look like Medium Sea Grey too me. And BE581 looks very much like BE500. By RAF - This is photograph COL 186 from the collections of the Imperial War Museums (collection no. [1]), Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=17615724 The photos of No.1 Sq in Day Fighter Scheme (which was getting tatty see So, if BE581 was ever in the Night Intruder scheme, it was during the summer, after the roundel change. If BE581 was repainted, I think the appearance would be as per the 87 Sq above, not as the of reproduced profile, which doesn't make sense, requiring the addition of Sky band, and yellow wing leading edges, and repainting the codes in Red. Though looking at this I'm wondering if the codes are actually red ? the tonal match to the roundels is fairly close, and it's a pretty rough paint job.
Nick Millman Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 Very top of the fin seems to be same colour as the spinner tip. Flight colours - yellow? Nick
Troy Smith Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Nick Millman said: Very top of the fin seems to be same colour as the spinner tip. Flight colours - yellow? Nick Possibly a trick of the light Nick, note the apparent pale colour of the trim tab as well, the "tip" of the fin is the rudder horn. 1
Garry c Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: 4 hours ago, Nick Millman said: Very top of the fin seems to be same colour as the spinner tip. Flight colours - yellow? Nick Possibly a trick of the light Nick, note the apparent pale colour of the trim tab as well, the "tip" of the fin is the rudder horn. The finish known as Special Night had adhesion problems, perhaps the tip pf the rudder, the leading edge of the tail, the gear door,the area between and behind the the letter E are all paint issues ? Just a guess, Garry c
Nick Millman Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Troy Smith said: Possibly a trick of the light Nick, note the apparent pale colour of the trim tab as well, the "tip" of the fin is the rudder horn. Yes, noted, thanks. But the light patch on the fin seems to extend below the moveable part of the rudder to include a strip along the top of the fin. Nick
Troy Smith Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 8 hours ago, Garry c said: The finish known as Special Night had adhesion problems, perhaps the tip pf the rudder, the leading edge of the tail, the gear door,the area between and behind the the letter E are all paint issues ? Just a guess, you are right about "Special Night" having adhesion problems, but it was applied over standard Night, and had stopped being used by 1942, but the Ducimus page I posted above has a 3 Sq Hurricane photo saying it is touched up Special Night. I still think the fuselage is lead oxide from a leaned out mix and long sorties note similar staining here, Hawker Hurricane. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr this was operated in Canada by a photo unit, hence long sorties 'leaned out' http://www.ascalecanadian.com/2007/10/rcaf-hawker-hurricanes-part-2.html 8 hours ago, Nick Millman said: Yes, noted, thanks. But the light patch on the fin seems to extend below the moveable part of the rudder to include a strip along the top of the fin. possibly, but note the fin top is the same tone as the leading edge of the tailplane and elevator. An examination of the original print perhaps would reveal more, wonder if there are more shots at the IWM not scanned.
Flavio Posted September 23, 2017 Posted September 23, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Nick Millman said: Very top of the fin seems to be same colour as the spinner tip. Flight colours - yellow? Nick I suspect it was not a a trick of the light; look at this picture from "RAF Fighter Command victory claims" vol2 pag129. It is BD949 "JX-J" in February '42 after being shot down and recovered by Germans (P/O R. Marcinkus Pow), and it has the same fin top in light color. Flavio Sorry not able to post the picture. Edited September 23, 2017 by Flavio 1
Troy Smith Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 11 hours ago, Flavio said: I suspect it was not a a trick of the light; look at this picture from "RAF Fighter Command victory claims" vol2 pag129. It is BD949 "JX-J" in February '42 after being shot down and recovered by Germans (P/O R. Marcinkus Pow), and it has the same fin top in light color. Flavio quick image search
Flavio Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 Thank you Troy. Hurricane BD949 probably gives us an idea as BE581 was after the re-size of fuselage roundel (and Fin Flash) and letters code in red. According to P. Lucas's article on MAM 01/2008, these changes were submitted on 21 January 1942. Flavio
Flavio Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 Hi all, surfing on the IWM photo archive, I found there is another picture about Kuttelwascher’s BE581 by the same owner "FLICK C S C (FLIGHT LIEUTENANT)" (apart from what seems to be an amazing “One album of 139 photographs relating to the service of Flight Lieutenant C S C Flick with Nos 1, 43 and 131 Squadrons…”). Unfortunately no previews are available but at least I think the photo referred as HU 92326 could be this one (from https://fcafa.com/2011/01/01/karel-kuttelwascher/). I am not an expert but the light colour of the fuselage section under the rear of the canopy is noteworthy; usually it was painted in one of the relevant upper surface camouflage colours, but here it appears on both Hurricane BE581 and BE500 in what seems an Interior Green tone. Could it be the prove that the overall Special Night finish was not applied to Hurricanes on the production line but by the Aircraft Service Units before the issue? I mean, the ASTs received the planes painted in their usual primer, and then applied the overall Special Night scheme, maybe hastly; this could explain why the antenna mast was left in its original natural wood, the “dog house” not painted black (the canopy was not removed) as were the canopy frames, and the ragged outline to the roundel. Thanks for your comment. Flavio
gingerbob Posted September 27, 2017 Posted September 27, 2017 Or is that just Dark Green, as you say a remnant from painting the aircraft black with the hood closed? bob 2
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now